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In another life, a very long time ago, I did an ecology field trip to somewhere in the South Downs. Juniper Hill comes to mind. The concern was that lack of sheep grazing was allowing scrubland (not forest) to invade downland. Dogwood was the scrub de jour.

You can recognise dogwood by its bark.

Aug 21, 2016 at 11:36 AM | Registered CommenterHector Pascal

golfCharlie. Looks like there is evidence against my position

http://www.whitecliffscountryside.org.uk/index.php?id_sec=79&id_sub=3

Bellamy states that Holywell Fen near Folkestone shows a floral change with a big reduction of tree pollen attributed to tree clearance on the nearby Downs. Disappearance of the organic soils caused by continuing grazing removing nutrients over time. Have not been able to find academic reference to Holywell Fen study. When I'm next in UEA I'll look it up.

I wonder if it's possible to distinguish between woodland/parkland and forests. My "evidence" remains unexplained.

Aug 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM | Unregistered CommenterACK

golfCharlie. Thank you for your last long post. I think it offers support for much of what I've written. Hangers is a term I know but had forgotten. Most occur on the scarps where the underlying substratum is the less pure Middle and Upper Chalk and some of the other localities seem to be artificial woodlands.
I consulted Wiki and in sections on the North and South Downs it says they were once forested. But I think this is wrong, no references are given. I give preference to observations over textbooks, but I don't even have my texts now. So I do pay attention when you put your observations about the place you live and give them credence. However this time I have my own research and observations, and am convinced the Upper Chalk part of the Downs and much of Salisbury Plain was never forested. My memory suggests there was support for this in some textbooks I once owned.

Aug 21, 2016 at 6:50 AM | Unregistered CommenterACK
Aug 21, 2016 at 2:48 AM | Unregistered Commenterclipe

ACK, apologies but I had not seen yours of 4:24, by the time I posted at 5:06. I then posted a reply about 10pm, but not sure what happened, and you have posted again!

ACK 4:24. You have your text books, I rely on my memories of O Level Geography in the late 70s, and my experience of growing up in/on the South Downs. A "hanger" is a wood on the side of a hill (scarp slope of a denuded anticline?), I am not sure if it is a term very specific to the South Downs.

3 miles south of Petersfield, down the A3 towards Portsmouth is Butser Hill, one of the highest places in Hampshire. There are trees on top, and the soil is thin. There is a large communications aerial/mast on top to this day, and certainly has been since the 1830s (?) as it was one of the semaphore signalling stations between Portsmouth Dockyard and the Admiralty. Irrespective of climate history, most trees would have been felled to allow for semaphore signalling. I tried grass skiiing down Butser in the mid 70s. Grass skis were like long caterpillar-tracked roller skates.

Jammed between Butser and the A3 is ButserAncientFarm. This is NOT the site of an archaeological dig, but the site of experimental archaeology since the early 70s. It is open to the public, and has featured on many TV programmes. They have experimented with construction, farming, traditional crafts etc. I have not visited in the last 25 years, so don't know how much climatatology is preached.

The other side of the A3 is Queen Elizabeth Country Park. I think it is mainly plantation, rather than natural. Neither Butser, nor QECP have a scarp slope.

2 miles North of Petersfield is a scarp slope, known for Internet purposes as Ashford Hangers National Nature Reserve. The slope feels vertical when walking up it, but is probably about 25-30 degrees. Trees grow happily, getting their roots into the friable chalk. No one would have wanted to plant trees there. Soil as such would have been produced from leaf litter etc, but should have been washed away. At the top of the scarp is farmland with clay soil. At the bottom of the scarp are springs, where the chalk sits on more clay.

On Ashford Hanger is Shoulder of Mutton Hill, where there is the Poet's Stone, a Memorial to WW1 Poet Edward Thomas. That is in a grass clearing, but I think it is maintained that way. The Poet's Stone itself, may have been relocated from Avebury. I used to play in/on/along Ashford Hanger as a kid!

The road that winds it's way up Ashford Hanger was closed for months after the 1987 gale. Uprooted trees took out the chalk that the road was carved into.

Between Butser and Winchester is Old Winchester Hill. See Wikipedia. It is about 10 miles from Winchester. It must have been a major stronghold until the Romans turned up. Trees grow there too, though attempts to grow grape vines on the south facing slopes to take advantage of all this global warming, have not been too successful.

Between Ashford Hanger and Alton is Selbourne, home of Gilbert White, the first English ecologist, who kept records of nature and weather. Climate Scientists don't like his records and books. He died in 1793. See Wikipedia.

I can't see your textbooks, but those are some of the places that anyone can visit, or check on Google Earth etc!

Aug 21, 2016 at 2:39 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

@Pcar, Where did I recommend "others" modify anything?

Download file, unzip, install.

Aug 21, 2016 at 2:04 AM | Unregistered Commenterclipe

@clipe, stick - wrong end of.

I will try again. You & I are comfortable using/editing Hosts, CLI, registry etc

Recommending others modify hosts file is dangerous when they don't know what it is or what an IP address is. One typo could have disastrous consequences.

You have seen how some (most?) are unaware of right-click?

KISS is best.

P

Aug 21, 2016 at 1:50 AM | Registered CommenterPcar

@Pcar, I wasn't trying to make you happier. I've been using mvps Hosts file since Win98 without having to edit or even regedit anything.

Aug 21, 2016 at 1:17 AM | Unregistered Commenterclipe

@clipe, thanks, but not needed. I'm happy using CLI, old DOS commands, batch files, regedit etc.

P

Aug 21, 2016 at 12:58 AM | Registered CommenterPcar

@stewgreen, Aug 19, 2016 at 3:12 PM

“Why was I able to vote twice in the EU referendum?” Spectator and fully in the Print edition

Guardian Readers often see so self-righteous they'd probably vote 5 times each, cos they know better and need to save the British public from the British public.

Update:

Spectator: Charles Moore ‘voted’ twice as a public service. Why send the police after him?

The Electoral Commission should have thanked him for drawing attention to a glaring flaw in our democratic system. Instead, it says it has reported Charles to the Metropolitan Police.

Aug 21, 2016 at 12:52 AM | Registered CommenterPcar

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