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Discussion > President Trump

Doh..."Britain leaving the EU" is should have been.

Jan 23, 2017 at 1:35 PM | Unregistered CommenterMedia Hoar

Media Hoar on Jan 23, 2017 at 8:33 AM
" I do not believe in conspiracies. Sometimes the system is in a particular state and one of the many triggers it receives starts something."

I agree. In fact, it happens all the time, but most ideas fade because of a lack of resource: a new swimming pool, a new Scout Troop, a new bypass, or a group to stop a bypass. All are examples that may affect the future, but what 'makes it happen' is having enough resource to perpetuate the idea, to gather critical mass. Often it is money, most useful when the local support is flagging and new blood can be transported in, which costs money, or the hall for poorly attended meetings can be financed until a few more locals join in, or the first event booking in a new town. Money is so anonymous!

The 'less local' it is, the more it should be examined, if only because there is probably more to find out. The more cash involved, the more times the money is supplied across the nation (or even across the world) for similar reasons, the more it needs to be brought to the attention of the public, with the pieces reassembled in intelligent ways.

It used to be the local/national press that did this, but your excellent link to the "#Trump will not be President" video shows that many just want to put their view, without any room for discussion, or even civility, and the recent demonstrations show that it is unlikely to change, so the 'powers of good' need to plan for it.

It is not a full conspiracy because the planning didn't start at the beginning, it only started part of the way through, when enough of the student population had been programmed and had entered the schools, academia, the QUANGOs, the political establishments, the Courts, the Churches, the entertainment industry and the news and current affairs organisations.

But it still happened and looks like continuing.

Jan 23, 2017 at 2:01 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

tomo on Jan 23, 2017 at 7:29 AM
"I hope Soros / CNN et al get well and truly stuffed."

The US needs a functioning fourth estate to provide political 'checks and balances'. It used to be the The Press, and it may morph into something else, but whatever it is, it is needed. Most people have a job to do and depend on others to provide political clarity, just as there is a need for a variety of safe, enjoyable food, easily available throughout the year.

Does this mean that CNN get stuffed? We will have to wait and see, but in the mean time, I expect there will be a lot of 'executive meetings' to at least show that 'lessons have been learnt'. :)

Jan 23, 2017 at 2:02 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

Robert Christopher, it does seem that many well funded groups and the media, are trying to provoke disorder in the US, in support for the Democrat party, now that the US version of Democracy is not going the Democrats way.

What are they hoping to achieve? Civil war? Riots? Bloodshed? More gun shots on US streets?

Jan 23, 2017 at 2:51 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

@EM 12:34 PM

this gets more bizarre by the day. Does a statute of limitations apply I wonder? - asking for my friend Bill....

@Robert Christopher -
I am a believer in the necessity of a robust and responsible 4th Estate. CNN are neither and imho the sooner they are gone the better. Maybe they can re-brand as DNN? or start producing drama?

I appreciate say, Andrew Neil - who does his homework, is a skilled interviewer and is not noted for suffering BS and rather good at destroying ignorant twerps. Delivering the news costs money ... but I feel that way many now in the job are merely passengers uncritically copying and pasting the mountains of self serving dross that they are bombarded with while at the same time being slavish in their adherence to "editorial guidelines". Then there's the "campaigners" - I have been quite surprised at the information incontinence of quite a lot of these and going back to their published pieces quite a lot slots into place... - Paul Mason comes to mind...

Jan 23, 2017 at 7:18 PM | Registered Commentertomo

As I was saying ...

Breitbart: George Soros Tied to More Than 50 ‘Partners’ of Anti-Trump Women’s March

golf charlie, you now know who to ask! :)

Jan 23, 2017 at 7:19 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

Mr. Soros is an extraordinary individual in the true meaning of the word.

The extents of his extra-ordinariness would seem at the moment to require a little bit of investigation.

Innocent until proven guilty and all that - but he doesn't appear overly bothered by the attention. Given his age - maybe he simply doesn't care and knows his wealth will be his protection - and in all likelihood he has a little black book.

He does seem to have been quite a busy chap. - no doubt he employs the best fixers around? - lets face it - he can afford it and he isn't likely to be able to spend his entire pile before he kicks the bucket.

Jan 23, 2017 at 7:35 PM | Registered Commentertomo

a bit of copy 'n paste from a thoughtful article here

People experience a strong psychological reluctance to accept that political events today are deliberately manipulated. This reluctance is itself a product of the ideology of the information age, which flatters people’s vanity and encourages them to believe that they have access to huge amounts of information.

In fact, the apparent multifarious nature of modern media information hides an extreme paucity of original sources, rather as a street of restaurants on a Greek waterfront can hide the reality of a single kitchen at the back.

News reports of major events very often come from a single source, usually a wire agency, and even authoritative news outlets like the BBC simply recycle information which they have received from these agencies, presenting it as their own. BBC correspondents are often sitting in their hotel rooms when they send despatches, very often simply reading back to the studio in London information they have been given by their colleagues back home off the wire.

A second factor which explains the reluctance to believe in media manipulation is connected with the feeling of omniscience which the mass media age likes to flatter: to rubbish news reports as manipulated is to tell people that they are gullible, and this is not a pleasant message to receive.

I see rather a lot of singing off the same hymn sheet at the moment

Jan 23, 2017 at 8:01 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Media Hoar

How far do I make my conclusions about Trump myself, and how far am I affected by media reporting of him? It's difficult to say, if I'm honest. I do try to apply a media filter, and I make a point of watching Al Jazeera and RT, not because they're unbiased and objective, but because they offer a different point of view, and sometimes report news from around the world which the BBC and other MSM choose to ignore. Film of Trump is of course viewed by me on TV, inevitably via a national TV channel. I try to watch the film and what he says, and ignore the spin put on it by news channels. How well I succeed, I honestly don't know.

I do know that I'm unimpressed by some of his shameless stirring up of the masses ("Who's gonna pay for the wall? Mexico's gonna pay for the wall" etc etc.). Maybe it was the only way he stood any chance of getting elected, but it doesn't play well with me. I also wonder (media-induced or own thoughts?) if he really cares about the poor and dispossessed, the redundant steel workers and coal miners, or whether he just saw an opportunity to get votes from people who are obviously ignored and despised by the likes of Hillary. Time will tell.

As I said, however, the shameless and co-ordinated campaign to undermine him before he had even performed a single act as POTUS sickens me. He was elected in accordance with the US constitution, and that's that as far as I'm concerned. I saw Polly Toynbee on the BBC the other day spitting venom - in response to a request that she say something positive about him, all she could come up with after a tirade of abuse was to say it would be good if he was quickly impeached, or some such rubbish. Impeached for what? He hasn't done much of anything yet. I say, let's see what he does and doesn't do, then judge him on it, not before.

golf charlie - Israel is undoubtedly complicated. I'm no expert, having done no more than pass briefly through Eilat en route between Jordan and Sinai, and having read a few big books on the subject (and having lived through perhaps 3/4 or so of Israel's existence). Clearly there is no easy answer. Equally clearly to me Obama's legacy regarding Israel in particular and the Middle East in general is dreadful; but I think that that making a U-turn and telling Israel they have a new best friend, in such a way that Israeli politicians get the message they can do what they want and the US (their biggest paymaster) won't be upset isn't the brightest of foreign policies. Dare I say it? - Bill Clinton actually had a reasonable approach to the issue, though inevitably he achieved little in the end - so far as Israel/Palestinians are concerned, it seems it takes 3 to tango.

Jan 23, 2017 at 8:18 PM | Unregistered CommenterMark Hodgson

I see Jonathan Pie has his own inimitable take on the Inauguration.

Jan 23, 2017 at 8:55 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Mark Hodgson, I agree that the situation in the Middle East is particularly fragile at the moment, with warring factions claiming to fight under the Green Flag of Islam.

Stirring up hostility towards Israel at the end of his Presidency, without any means of dealing with the consequences, seems downright irresponsible. I wonder what Obama wrote in the "Handover" letter, that he was filmed leaving on his vacated desk.

Greed for oil, and the wealth and power it generates, has been causing wars for about a hundred years. The Global Warming Scam has only led to more conflict, whereas in theory, it should have reduced it, another of Climate Science's political failures.

Progressives fear Trump and EU Exiteers, for fear of Nationalism, but seem to encourage religious fundamentalism, provided it is not Jewish.

Jan 23, 2017 at 9:53 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

re: Israel...

curious (historical) mention... here - found because US is *now* dispatching more of the souped up "spook dusters" to deal with what one must assume is Islamist insurgency in Kenya - which may or may not be Trump....

quote (from 2015)


Last summer, Israel gave 16 Bell Cobra attack helicopters to Jordan's Royal Air Force

Israel arming the Jordanians? - I missed that...

Jan 23, 2017 at 11:07 PM | Registered Commentertomo

I wonder if EM can tell us how much Obama paid for his dinners at Buckingham Palace and other seats of European power? EM is obviously totally incapable of understanding the world unless it is presented for him through a prism of activists whose view he espouses. The very definition of a "useful idiot".

EM - did you take money from the East German government to go on marches for CND, like Mnsgr Bruce Kent et al?

Jan 23, 2017 at 11:16 PM | Unregistered Commenterdiogenes

stewgreen on Jan 23, 2017 at 10:32 PM in Unthreaded

A brilliant post of yours in Unthreaded, worth reading again. Here it is again, just below the next paragraph.

It is worth waiting to allow the fake news to be tested first, which doesn't appear to have happened over at ConHome, especially in the comments:
ConservativeHome:
The canting, self-righteous, liberal enemies of Trump who shouted “liar” at him – and failed


@Pcar this is interesting CNN have released a Google Earth type image at the moment of the inauguration and Spicer was right it is packed stretching back 800m along the National Mall.
With only empty audience spots being at the rear of a 2 of 20 blocks.

I suppose it doesn't matter cos the BBC has done it's job of presenting the narrative of
"Photos show an empty Mall so Trump is a loser and his Press Officer a liar"
It's worth checking the transcript of the emergency briefing about false news. The BBC falsely called a Press Conference
It's 1.5 pages so takes 5 min to read and shows BBC omit a lot of key info.
The key point Spicer makes is ” This was the largest audience to ever *witness* an inauguration — period — both in person and around the globe.”

See how that is a different measure from Obama's total PARADE crowd size (which was way above a million.given DC is mostly black)

See people tell you that 2 different people cannot have 2 different truths
BUT with semantics they can
#1 Obama’s march parade CROWDS were far bigger
#2 The actual number of WITNESS eyes on Trump’s oath could have been bigger
If you were 800m back that's too far too witness the oath

Te CNN photo is way different from the sparse crowd ones I saw in the papers Times and Y Post
That does seem to show that pics the media used were False-narrative
either taken at less than peak point or from particular angles.
My longer comment

Jan 23, 2017 at 11:59 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

Mark Hodgson, I am white anglo-saxon and English (actually a quarter Irish) with a christian upbringing and education. As a child in the 1970s, the only time I heard the word Palestine was as a prefix to Liberation Organisation.

My work and private life has taken me into visits and meetings with many different Christian groups within the UK, aswell as different Muslim and Jewish groups within the UK. The idea that all UK Christians think alike is clearly ridiculous, however there is an assumption by many in the UK (and elsewhere) that all Jews think alike, as do all Moslems.

It only ever seems to be the views of extremists that get reported or broadcast, and extremists love to claim authority and legitimacy for their views, giving a false impression.

A bit like the fraudulent 97% misrepresentation.

Jan 24, 2017 at 3:01 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

M Courtney seeks to demonstrate why more and more Americans tune out lefty twits more and more rapidly.
President Trump signed an order directing government rapidly move to replace the terminally broken Unaffordable Care Act that sold inferior high priced low-to-no benefit insurance to Americans with healthcare that actually works.
Claiming that is a betrayal of anyone is to admit to a hatred of the poor and envy of the integrity of the President.
IOW you are a fool.

Jan 24, 2017 at 4:33 AM | Unregistered Commenterhunter

Mark, I understand. My questioning happened about 6 months before the election. I know when I am being obviously manipulated (hence the Climate Science interest). I had never paid much attention to Trump, but then could see what was going on, and it was the subject of long chats with my teenage son in the car (horay! a common area of interest.)

I said then that Trump could win but he had nothing to lose (attacks were wall to wall) but was still in the race.

I have lived and worked in the US. You get a feel for the place.

The US hasn't changed much, there is a thin veneer of (often WASP) respectability but underneath it is still the Wild West, still the land the Godfather. Politics is a rough game.

All people have to do is look at American culture. Every Western, comic book, war films, Die hard, SciFi. It is always the individual overcoming the bad guys. It is their culture, created from conquering a wilderness through expansion and conquest (stone age indigenous people is not conquest, just extermination).

So Trump was turned into Clint Eastward defeating the Rail Barons. He became John Wayne, Bruce Willis. He became the Super Hero in the comic defeating the corrupt establishment. The establishment made him, he didn't have to lift a finger. And he got the girl who stood by his side through it all. And as an aside, many of those roles could be defined by someone as sexist, racist etc. Just because they are "old-fashioned".

Another point, at Uni my French friend said the French factory owner would drive to work in the battered Renault, and leave the Rolls for weekend. He didn't want a strike. America has ZERO problem with ostentatious wealth, no matter how much European sensibilities are offended. People think "well done", not "rich w*nker". Perceived taste has little to do with it.

The Washington establishment tries to have that veneer of respectability, But it is like ancient Rome, not the House of Lords.

One of the things with the Pizzagate and Spirit Cooking episodes was not the wild over the top accusations and falsehoods. They didn't damage Hilary. What did was the actual facts (the actual art in question.) It looked like Washington at Caligua's time. People with power taking the piss. Thinking "we are gods". It did not play well with provincial America (outside CA and NY).

I claim no great insight into US elections, but I followed it beyond the MSM and felt Trump could win. So people like EM were not well served by their chosen information sources. Like always happens and especially with the left, they start to believe their own propaganda, build up the mob mentality, group think.

You do not have to agree with everything you find outside the mainstream, but it allows to question and challenge. And I never doubted Trump had a chance to win, and in the last few days, despite the polls, I thought he would win.

It wouldn't matter if I hate Trump or not. People like EM should be questioning not Trump, but the information they are being fed, the message, the propaganda. But it ill-served them (and Climate Change is no different.)

And that is why Brexit and Trump are so interesting. The biggest lesson. Consensus? Experts? They mean very little. The anti-Trump movement should be looking at themselves not Trump, EVERYTHING was hiding in plain sight, but they didn't want to look or be told.

Jan 24, 2017 at 5:16 AM | Unregistered CommenterMedia Hoar

Media Hoar. I also lived and worked in the US and often visited after I had left. I originally had great respect for most Americans, but that suffered a sharp blow shortly after 9-11. My view was that most Americans were independent minded, perhaps overly proud of their nation and its governance (or the Constitution) and wouldn't put up with any nonsense from their politicians - federal, state or local. Petty interferences with their lives would be vigorously opposed.

Shortly after 9-11 I visited universities that had student exchange relations with UEA and had a 17stop ticket. This was sufficiently unusual that at each airport I was marked out for special treatment, especially at boarding gates. I therefore observed the tactics used on American citizens and simply could not believe that they and onlookers stood for it. I saw a man in calipers forced to stand with his legs spread (it must have been agony) and no one said anything. An old woman in a wheelchair was made to stand and shuffle towards a guard, and she, people with her and onlookers didn't raise a murmur of protest. I couldn't believe it. The people I would have expected to support the weak and powerless, did sweet FA.
Nothing now suprises me about what ordinary Americans will tolerate. I started to understand how cultured Germany came to accept Nazism. I'm now much less certain that the checks and balances of the American constitution could withstand full blown Trumpism.

Jan 24, 2017 at 7:38 AM | Unregistered CommenterSupertroll

Stewgreen. You wrote the following -

"The key point Spicer makes is ” This was the largest audience to ever *witness* an inauguration — period — both in person and around the globe.”

"See people tell you that 2 different people cannot have 2 different truths
BUT with semantics they can
#1 Obama’s march parade CROWDS were far bigger
#2 The actual number of WITNESS eyes on Trump’s oath could have been bigger
If you were 800m back that's too far too witness the oath"

Sorry but this does not compute. If Spicers comment only referred to the number of people who directly witnessed (=observed) then Spicer could not go on to write "and around the globe" because those global witnesses must have watched TV coverage. Most of the crowd in the Mall presumably watched on large plasma screens. It therefore rests on how many people were in the Mall. The Mall overflowed for Obama, and wasn't full for Trump. But does it matter?

So there are conflicting images, that produced by the MSM showing sparce crowds and this satellite image showing larger crowds. Obviously taken at different times and we have no way of determining when. Do I care, NO. What do I care about? That the new President chose to spend time contesting MSM statements and making the stupid comment that crowds at his inauguration were the biggest ever. Something he could not know, something probably untrue and something totally unimportant (except to Trump's ego). Not the best start and the continued confrontation with the fourth estate does not bode well.

Jan 24, 2017 at 9:09 AM | Unregistered CommenterSupertroll

Media Hoar & Supertroll

Thank you for your insights. I have never lived in the USA, and indeed never even had a holiday there. I have been in transit at US airports and made to go through customs/passport control because their transit lounges were on the other side of customs/passport control. How stupid is that? Their passport officials were rude and obnoxious. A three hour stopover en route to New Zealand saw me in the queue to get past passport control, for 2 hours, and then I had to go and stand back in the queue to get back on the 'plane. Brilliant! But that's by the by...

golf charlie

I appreciate what you are saying. Just for the record, I am not anti-semitic, and am not even anti-Israel (though I have concerns about extreme Zionism just as I have concerns about extreme Islam - in fact about pretty much extreme anything). I appreciate that Israelis come in all shapes and sizes and with all sorts of views. My point was really that the situation there is complicated almost beyond belief, and that any simplistic approach to it by a US President is really naive and probably unhelpful. There, I think about I've just about kept it on topic re President Trump.

Jan 24, 2017 at 9:14 AM | Unregistered CommenterMark Hodgson

Minty: I’m not too sure which bit of the news you saw; there were shots taken some unspecified time before the ceremony showing green sward, taken from the Lincoln memorial end, but the shots from Capitol Hill during the actual ceremony showed it to be pretty full. Methinks that the MSM are up to their usual jiggery-pokery in this.

Jan 24, 2017 at 10:19 AM | Registered CommenterRadical Rodent

Ravishing Rattie. I couldn't really care less about crowd numbers, but a lower turnout was also demonstrated by Wahington Transit data. More concerning is Trump's rather childish behaviour over this essentially non-issue. Unless he curbs his braggado response to perceived slights the media will pull him down. Someone should confiscate his tweeter. His press officers are also doing him no favours.

Jan 24, 2017 at 10:42 AM | Unregistered CommenterSupertroll

Supertroll on Jan 24, 2017 at 10:42 AM
"a lower turnout was also demonstrated by Wahington Transit data"

Yes, if you take the latest figures:
Transcript of White House press secretary statement to the media (link above)
"We know that 420,000 people used the D.C. Metro public transit yesterday, which actually compares to 317,000 that used it for President Obama's last inaugural."

It is something that the media have taken and blown up out of all proportion, so it hardly reflects on Trump.

The Media, along with Soros and most of Academia and the Entertainment Industry, are in All Out Attack Mode and the President and his team are parrying every incursion - and Trump has hardly started what he has promised to do!

The White House press secretary statement quoted above has a lot of other points, but they are too important to be discussed. :)

It might be some time before this war of attrition dies down, if ever.

Jan 24, 2017 at 12:32 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher
Jan 24, 2017 at 12:45 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

@Media Hoar:

Another well written piece, thank you.

Jan 24, 2017 at 12:45 PM | Unregistered CommenterSteve Richards