Tuesday
Sep022014
by 
Bishop Hill
Bishop Hill Demand response
Sep 2, 2014 Energy: grid The Energy and Climate Change Committee are currently considering demand response, which is an interesting subject for those who quite like the idea of having energy when required rather than when permitted by the political classes. The hearing started a few moments ago and features:
- Duncan Burt, Head of Commercial Operations, System Operation, National Grid
- Phil Jones, Chief Executive, Northern Powergrid
- Sara Bell, Executive Director, UK Demand Response Association
- Yoav Zingher, Co-founder, KiWi Power (who make kit for demand management)
- Zoe Leader, Climate and Energy Specialist, WWF
(because you can't have any hearing at the ECC without a green on board). This is followed by a separate panel.
- Matthew Hancock MP, Minister of State for Energy, Department of Energy and Climate Change
I'll write some notes as I listen.
- We're hearing that big manufacturing operations will have to change the times at which they operate. (so prepare to move to nightshifts people!)
- Witnesses seem to think that domestic users are at least as important via smart metering.
- WWF are worried that people will switch to diesel generators instead of switching off.
- Discussion of trials of smart meters, in which consumers were switched off "with their consent, obviously".
- Discussion of car plants switching off at 2 hours' notice and then everyone works overtime later on. Did I really hear that!!!
- Discussion of making up grid shortfalls by buying in diesel generation from manufacturing businesses etc. WTF!!!
- They seem to be envisaging a world in which your hotel airconditioning will switch off without notice for half an hour.
- Pure diesel farms can bid into the new system. Gotta love greenery.
- Tim Yeo is pretending he gives a monkey's about consumers.
- The lady from WWF is being asked if she is happy with the proposed arrangements. Surprised MPs aren't down on bended knee before her.
- Discussions of "deciding when to run the washing machine".
Reader Comments (57)
Despite there appearing to be no logic in cutting the power of vacuum cleaners etc I think I have a reason for the EU to push this agenda. If you decrease the max power of a large number of appliances then peak demand decreases, so after East Enders all those low powered kettles will be on longer boiling the water and the total power used will remain the same but the peak blip will be reduced. All ready for when the Smart meters are rejected by the populace.
"3.WWF are worried that people will switch to diesel generators instead of switching off."
It is a bit of a surprise to find WWF so in touch with reality. While chatting with my boss at work he confirmed that if electricity supply from the grid became intermittent we would be forced to install a back up generator, there is simply no other way we could keep doing business. Likewise at home we would upgrade our genny and have it connected to our consumer unit so that we could switch over during power cuts.
#7 sounds a lot like living in India.
The British are insane to even allow this type of talk. Why are you not in the streets demanding your representatives secure your energy needs? Seriously - why???
Re: Breath of Fresh Air
It wont use the same power, it will use more. Because it takes longer to reach boiling point there will be more heat loss from the kettle as it heats up.
Bish, read Booker on the plan that's already in place to make use of the backup generator capacity of industry. It has a project name, I just don't have access at the moment to my info on it. They will receive a standard payment for any capacity they can offer, and then generous usage payments. It's the same ploicy driving the diesel farms whereby they'll get a guaranteed income for providing the capacity
Maybe we could all get in on the action.
How about everybody has a
winddiesel generator that feeds power into the grid when needed and we all get paid over the odds for the electricity. In times of low demand they could even pay us not to switch the generators on.Diesel STOR will cause more fossil fuel use for the windmill tranche of electricity than if there were no windmills at all and that power produced by the old coal fired power stations. The increase of NOx and particulates in cities will kill 100s of 1000s of people whilst that disastrous experiment is carried out, probably 5 years max., the period of a UK government. At the end of that period the greens would be identified as the party of windmill dogma, pollution and job destruction to enrich those bankrolling their campaign, the likes of Soros, Grantham and Goldman Sachs.
Only when Greenpeace, FoE and WWF fat cats are lynched in the streets will this madness end and the power system be handed back to professional, environmentally concerned engineers like me who know what a catastrophic mess our elite has created. They did so to profit from renewables and subsidy farming, the intention being to rape the population.
It wont use the same power, it will use more. Because it takes longer to reach boiling point there will be more heat loss from the kettle as it heats up.
Sep 2, 2014 at 10:41 AM | Unregistered CommenterTerryS
Yes, missed that one.
There is a deliberate, concerted plan afoot to deprive the ordinary person of electric power. This will be achieved, initially, by ramping up the price, followed by cajoling, followed, in turn by direct intervention (smart meters, which of course will be installed "voluntarily"). This is in order to reduce required consumption, so that renewable energy may be seen to be a viable proposition (which, of course, it won't).
The simple answer to energy shortage, is to concentrate on the most successful means of producing ample electricity ever since we've been able to - by generating steam for turbines, be it by means of coal, gas, oil, or even nuclear fission. All the components are there, largely in the ground, plentiful, and readily available.
Instead of which, we are forced to close power stations (whilst making it impossible fro them to be brought back on line), and throw ourselves at the mercy of the sun and the wind.
They tell us our planet is warming, that it's our fault, and that by succumbing to these "measures", all will be well - the climate will stop changing, and everything will be wonderful.
In the background, meanwhile, it should be dawning on these people that their projected warming just ain't happening, and, if anything, the planet is getting progressively cooler - for which, inevitably, many will pay with their lives.
Why are we allowing this to happen to us?
O/T but wind currently supplying just 1.3% of our needs.
I wish the WWF would just stick to saving the tiger et al. A warmer world is demonstrably better for wildlife and that has been the case throughout history while most wildlife extinction now comes from simple poaching. Energy matters are so far from their original remit that it can no longer be regarded as any kind of animal charity - rather a political pressure group to promote anti-humanism.
Re: Breath of Fresh Air
all those low powered kettles will be on longer boiling the water and the total power used will remain the same
It wont use the same power, it will use more. Because it takes longer to reach boiling point there will be more heat loss from the kettle as it heats up. (TerryS)
And the low-powered vacuum cleaners (the next stage of the plan is a 900W limit!) will be less effective, so will have to be used more often, thereby also using more power. No doubt other schemes will work in a similar way.
It does seem rather strange that government policy is to achieve third world status. I hate to say this but we have to hope the AMO brings a lot of cold and miserable weather over the next few years. The only other hope is that UKIP are in a position to influence energy policy after the next election. At the moment AMO looks like the best bet.
Well, they can WWF Off.
Choose Life, as the slogan goes. Time to ditch the green death cult.
It's alarming how a party with so little support seems to be the obligatory rentaquote on everything for certain media outlets. Why? They know nothing and only contribute propaganda.
Nobody votes for them so they worm their way onto committees and try to seize power that way. They have plenty of time to do it because few of them have real jobs.
Re: TerryS
Re: Breath of Fresh Air
all those low powered kettles will be on longer boiling the water and the total power used will remain the same
It wont use the same power, it will use more. Because it takes longer to reach boiling point there will be more heat loss from the kettle as it heats up.
Solution: Buy two kettles and half fill each one.
I hope that someone is going to show the MPs (and explain to them what it means if they cannot understand it) the Peak Demand v. Generation graph on page 24 of this report:
https://www.bsria.co.uk/download/asset/will-the-lights-go-out-2.pdf
This is the STOR idea in operation. Make grid power unreliable and you incentivise big consumers finding their own solutions. Once they have found their own solutions you bribe them to help keep the lights on. It is neither cheap nor low CO2 but allows for coal and nuclear powered supplies to shrink.
As well as diesel generator farms specifically for making money out of STOR what we will presumably also see is a steady renewal of backup generators in places such as factories and hospitals to larger units, big enough to provide backup power *and* dribble power into the grid when requested.
TerryS said:
Yes. More energy in total but a smaller peak demand. They are focused on peak demand because it is peak demand response that wind power is buggering up. They are shortsighted and not the ones paying the bills. They have intentionally turned a cost effective, centrally generated and managed, and fairly simple power grid into a costly 'intelligent' network that will require micro-managing all the time at both ends and only may reduce CO2 emissions.
I wonder if the plans are still based on lots of electric cars not going anywhere to act as battery storage.
Bottom line , we have cocked up the energy supply system , although we have knew for years about the problems and that renewable simply cannot supply need.
I do not know what the Chinese is for ‘laughing our arses off’ but I should image that is exactly what they doing has the look forward to even more industry heading in their direction.
The Greens WANT an energy crisis they see it has an ‘opportunity ‘ and are willing to pay the cost this will come with has they don’t think it will be their bodies making up the pile .
I have solar panels fitted, and as a safety measure, they shut off whenever the power from the grid is cut off. As the power cuts are more likely to be in the early evening, I don't suppose it will reduce my power production significantly. I do wonder though how many more people will die each year from electrocution as a result of home generation feeding back into a nominally switched off grid.
Try as I might I can find nothing on Google that tells me what Zoe Leader's qualifications are for talking to a Parliamentary committee - other than working for WWtF.
I note that in my searches for her she had something to do with kiwi power - a company co-founded by MP Matthew Hancock.... Hmmmmm See http://www.kiwipowered.com/
This from the Kiwipower site:[my bold]
Anyone else see the screaming paradox in that statement?
Kiwipower is clearly run by technologically-ignorant hypocrites. Sums up all these people quit well methinks.
I first met these people (FoE version) in 2001; they thought you could create a virtual power station over Europe just comprising renewables and to get their way, ethnically-cleansed all the professionals who didn't kow-tow. Think of this as a slow burn progress to our version of the Pol Pot regime.
There is a response to this attempted fascist revolution, and it's under way as a part of the free market. Make 10 million homes able to exist off grid and the Fascist subsidy farmers and our Green Overlords lose big time.........
knr,
They certainly want an energy crisis, but it will not be them paying the price....it will be us the consumers, and voters. Our supposed government is there to run the Country in the best interests of the People and the necessities of life of which energy, secure and affordable, is a rather important one. Cut that in winter and deaths will occur. How many are Ed the green Davey and his back up man Cameron prepared to accept? We really need a big demonstration against these people killers, WWF, greenpeace and the other fake charities supported by our government to destroy our civilisation!
Yeah, but - hang on. All this theory about using industry's generators in the event of a shortfall...
During my 'career' (ha..!) as an engineer I installed two standby generators, one for a medicines factory and one for a research facility - both of 0.5MW. HOWEVER, between the mains and the generator was, in each case, a sodding great changeover switch, so that you could NOT 'backfeed' the mains...
So - how is that going to be overcome - because you can't risk mains and genny backup being on together..!
I wonder if they have consulted with the super, duper UK Met Off climate change computer in order to plan for the coming brown outs.
Should be really funny if they have. They could, of course, just plan for the worse.
Sep 2, 2014 at 1:06 PM | Unregistered Commentersherlock1
I believe that remote activated disconnectors are available but you are right, of course, that there are some problems out there.
I tried to power the whole village this year when I forgot to drop the mains switch. My poor little 5Kw generator coughed a lot until I realised.
Plutus - the Greek God of Wealth, seizes the opportunity, there is money to be made!
Plutus on stand-by to stop the blackouts
And you know who will pick up the bill!
all those low powered kettles will be on longer boiling the water and the total power used will remain the same
It wont use the same power, it will use more. Because it takes longer to reach boiling point there will be more heat loss from the kettle as it heats up. (TerryS)
In theory, the energy required to raise a litre of water by 1°C remains the same, however, because evaporation occurs as the water is heated, the lower the input power the closer to evaporation loss / power balance you get until the two are equal and the temp of the water ceases to rise. That's why the EU will be passing a law requiring all vessels in which you boil liquids to have their lids on. ;}
Marginally off-topic, but relevant...
Have you noticed how , in recent times, the lovely Carol Kirkwood (sigh...) on the BBC, has been hedging forecasts around with: 'We're not sure of the exact path of that depression in three days time...' and 'Those will be the overnght temperatures in towns and cities - in rural areas they will be a lot lower...'
So - what happened to 'Met Office Ten day forecasts' - and, come to that - poo-pooing by alarmists of the 'Urban heat island'..?
Hmmm. I think my Moonbat rant on the next thread, “10 old climate change controversies - Josh 290” was misplaced, and should be on here. Sorreeee….
Actually, as it most definitely is about demand, it certainly should be here!
It's all a kind of Four Yorkshiremen sketch in reverse. A kettle! Hot water! Luxury. We're going to have to suck our tea on a piece of cold damp cloth.
Bloke down the pub:
I hope you have some heat and power dissipation arrangements in case the power cut comes in the middle of a sunny summer day when the panels will be producing maximum output. Acquaintances lost their house to a fire caused by overheated solar gear.
*******
When I was a student some of my contemporaries proved that there was a minimal delay in broadcasting by bringing along a radio to a live Radio 1 broadcast, and getting close enough to the DJ and his microphone causing feedback squeals to broadcast to the nation. Likewise, listening to Test Match Special at a Test Match demonstrated much the same point, if less dramatically. These days, digital TV is broadcast with a substantial delay, as those watching soccer tournaments on analogue TVs know well enough - it's a lag of quite some seconds.
If therefore you wish to spread the peak demand associated with the end of a televised sporting event, all you need to do is to introduce different delays on different transmitters. It isn't live any more anyway.
Whenever I read of policy discussions like these taking place I can only wonder how long it is going to take before the 'inverted pyramid of piffle' (A.'B.' Johnson - on a quite different subject) finally topples over.
The apex on which this piffle pyramid is resting is the notion of CO2 as a GHG and the forcing that is supposed to take CO2 from being thermally insignificant to being a danger to the future of mankind. Everything else in this lunacy - the weather obsessions, the windfarms, the smart meters etc. etc. - is resting on that one concept.
For any rational person this notion has been invalidated as a threat: CO2-GHG theory should be put in the bin alongside phlogiston and Piltdown Man. Once this is done the rest of the pyramid topples over to form just a very expensive pile of rubble.
Once that apex collapses there is surely nothing more to discuss beyond practical measures to ensure energy security and to reduce energy prices.
How long is it going to take to purge public discourse - everything from legislation to school textbooks - of this nonsense? When will people finally stop even mentioning 'carbon'?
How long is it going to take before our betters accept that public policy over the last twenty years has just been a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing?
This level of stupidity in our masters is just shocking.
"It wont use the same power, it will use more. Because it takes longer to reach boiling point there will be more heat loss from the kettle as it heats up."
No, it WILL use less power. However. it will use more energy, for the reason you gave.
WWF and electricity supply?
WTF?
"HOWEVER, between the mains and the generator was, in each case, a sodding great changeover switch, so that you could NOT 'backfeed' the mains..."
Quite. But during generator runtime the facility would be drawing little power from grid.
Or did you actually think all those domestic solar PV installations powered the grid?
"WWF are worried that people will switch to diesel generators"
And where could they have got that idea..?
IDAU
"It isn't live any more anyway"
Does that mean we no longer have to pay the licence fee?
Parliament building's standby generation:
Will the committee be willing to confirm that it won't be used when there is a pre-planned interruption of power in SW1A 0AA?
jamesp a ban on useful diesel generators for house holds use will soon 'solve' that problem of people turning to these and you can bet the WWF and friends will push for such a ban. Never under-esteem the depths the fanatics will go to.
Meanwhile lets remember that the Guardian's main promoter of the 10:10 splatter feast video, one the best home goals ever seen , has found a new happy home at WWF , to work on the media for them.
If a hospital for example has to go over to to using it's own standby generation it can't feed the grid because it surely needs power for itself, also balancing all these disparate generating sources must be well nigh impossible.
Most of the standby generators have a very small capacity to store fuel. Yhey are only meant to operate for a short period before the grid is rrestored.
UK just need to set up some of these solar panels from Spain:
Over at Bishop Hill, there’s a story about an inquisition into the Spanish solar power industry, which was so heavily subsidized and the price being paid for solar power feed-in so much more than conventional power, that some unscrupulous opportunists decided to run solar power systems at night, with the help of a diesel generator:
How long is it going to take before our betters accept that public policy over the last twenty years has just been a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing?
This level of stupidity in our masters is just shocking.
Sep 2, 2014 at 4:24 PM | Peter Czerna
"Our betters!" Surely you must be joking. Otherwise I shall feel gravely insulted.
"Our masters!" We employ them, and pay their salaries.
@sherlock1: Sep 2, 2014 at 1:06 PM
It is easy to 'parallel' generators if they have suitable AVR/governor and synchronizing gear.
Hear, hear, Allan M! We are slowly (and not so subtly) being led to the belief that Cam-moron, Milipede, et al are, in some way, “in power” (not, as is correct, “in office”), and so are our superiors, and we should be listening avidly to every utterance they make, as we are too dim to make our own decisions. Many are already forgetting that we are their masters; they are in that position at our behest, they are not there by divine right (though many seem to believe that). Prove them wrong, and make sure you vote for anyone – anyone! – who is NOT LibLabCon (and make sure your neighbours, friends, family, colleagues, etc. do the same... oh, Gillian Duffy, hang your head in abject embarassment).
As an aside, I once made the point of us paying their wages (and, thus, their taxes) to my own MP. A comment studiously ignored.
Having lived with intermittent power, I note a few recurring problems. If you cut off power to residences, they lose heat. The lack of power to pump oil to furnaces, to operate thermostats or to circulate hot water leaves te home with no heat. The common response is to heat with a gas oven or reacquaint with the fireplace. These solutions will keep the fire brigades busy as sparks fly and carbon monoxide (far more deleterious then its' fully oxidized kin whose must not be named) is formed. The nest problem is restoring power, since appliance will often not be turned off as they are not running anyway. A slow roll is necessary to avoid stall load from all the fridges and heat circulators kicking in at once. I would suggest that everyday become "Take a Pensioner to Work Day".
I foresee an exchange of the emissions from controlled burning at coal plants for the less controlled emissions of home burned coal and wood and the fumes of poorly maintained home generators.
Perhaps we can return to the (in my case) Colonial approach of closing off most of the house in winter and you can see a return of the "killer fogs" in London.
Allen M
all those low powered kettles will be on longer boiling the water and the total power used will remain the same
It wont use the same power, it will use more. Because it takes longer to reach boiling point there will be more heat loss from the kettle as it heats up. (TerryS)
And the low-powered vacuum cleaners (the next stage of the plan is a 900W limit!) will be less effective, so will have to be used more often, thereby also using more power. No doubt other schemes will work in a similar way.
Like the water saving toilets that need flushing twice before they work!
> Like the water saving toilets that need flushing twice before they work!
And can also result in having to flush millions of dollars worth of bleach down the sewer system to clear out the sludge backing up in the sewers.