Saturday
Oct262013
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Bishop Hill
Bishop Hill Saturday open thread
Oct 26, 2013 Climate: Cuttings 
In my absence, here is an open thread for any climate and energy news today.
Oct 26, 2013 Climate: Cuttings 
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Oct 26, 2013 Climate: Cuttings
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Reader Comments (111)
Greenpeace watch:
-7°C in Murmansk. Wind: 0 mph. A nice day to go to the beach.
I think that's what they call an ice-breaker :)
Are their cells heated by renewables??
From crocks of sh*t to gloating over the discomfort of those in a Siberian prison - one of the problems of thinking you are winning / have won is that you start behaving like the opposition.
Animal Farm anyone?
Is Murmansk in Siberia?
@ geoffchambers
Like you, presumably, I hope the Green Peace protestors will soon be released from prison, but they were very naive. What sort of reception did they expect? If they had attempted to take over an off-shore oil rig in the North Sea or the Gulf of Mexico (let alone one anywhere in the Middle East) I would hope that they would find themselves under arrest before they got close to it, otherwise terrorists would have an open invitation to attack our oil rigs.
Murmanskians stay warm by the glow of the old open-air nuclear test sites on nearby Novaya Zemlya.
I also hope that they are released soon, however, even John Sauven had to admit this week that this was a wake up call for the self appointed righteousness of his organization. Perhaps these zealots will come to appreciate that they do live in a free society where laws and planning regulations are set in place by a democratic process. I am struck by the almost universal incredulity of posters in the MSM that Greenpeace half expected the Russians would react in a soft liberal way to their protest and be cowed by media pressure . I have been to Russia and know that the country runs in an autocratic and glacially slowly way and is very non western way outside St Petersburg. I presume that they will get off lighter than the Russians themselves but they can expect at least a few years in prison.
Having a Saturday morning mooch following up work-related stuff I stumbled over the paper at the link, about the Social Amplification of Risk Framework in relation to ash die-back disease in the UK. There are parallels with all manner of chicken littleism that the congregation might find illuminating.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/chalara-and-the-social-amplification-of-risk
The situation with the Greenpeace people in Russia is Karma in action. It is time some of those people discovered that their lawless actions have consequences.
Greenpeace has been one of the driving forces in destroying economies due to raising energy costs and therefore have been a driving force in the killing of poor people who could not afford the higher prices or were left jobless due to plant closing and such forth.
I shall enjoy their discomfort immensely. They deserve every minute of it. The dead and the poor cry out for even more to experience the pain of being cold.
IEA EVENT: Climate Change: Are we building bad economic policy on bad science?
27 November 2013, 6.00pm
2 Lord North Street, Westminster, London SW1 (door on Great Peter Street)
Professor Michael Beenstock speaks on climate change in relation to economic policy
RSVP (ACCEPTANCES ONLY) TO IEA RECEPTION
EITHER BY E-MAIL TO: iea@iea.org.uk
OR PHONE (020 7799 8900)
http://www.iea.org.uk/events/climate-change-are-we-building-bad-economic-policy-on-bad-science
filbert cobb
Interesting link.
I got as far as the idea of reducing red tape while at the same time creating two new quangos before I gave up.
As someone said in a different context yesterday, do these people realise how daft they look?
I agree that woodland needs managing but the solution is to get on and manage it, preferably with foresters who know what they're doing. More Whitehall Warriors agonising over the subject at length on paper doesn't quite seem to fit the bill somehow.
I agree with Mark S and Pierre Goslin. The latter writes in his blog :-
Greenpeace is not a peaceful organization. It is one of violence, condescending intolerance, and confrontation, all hiding behind a guise of moral superiority. It recruits the young, teaches them to hate opposing views and to never compromise with them. It rejects dialogue, always claiming the discussion is over and that they are the ultimate keepers of the truth. Greenpeace teaches the young that they can justify acts of violence and law-breaking by simply claiming moral superiority and the struggle for a noble cause. - See more at: www.notrickszone.com
When the Greenpeace issue first blew up, a pal of mine, no Greenpeace admirer, not by a long chalk, wrote to me to say that: "I do have sympathy for those activists currently detained in Russia".
He got me thinking so, this being an open thread, I've taken the liberty of posting my reply as a contribution to the discussion. And I mean discussion - in light of many recent posts here, GeoffChambers' warning is IMHO fully justified.
++++
Well, I do and I don't. Had they no inkling that the Russian regime has an authoritarian side?
According to a semi-official spokesman for the Russian government on Channel 4 News last night (you knew he was at least semi-official because he wore a sombre suit, was about a metre and a half across at the shoulders and didn't do smiles), when Greenpeace staged a similar stunt on another Russian Arctic oil rig last year, its "activists" were quietly released without charge following a promise by Greenpeace that it would not do it again.
Well I'm blowed. It seems it's only been and gone and done it again.
I've not managed to confirm the warned-off claim but Greenpeace certainly has form here as the article you link to (and others) report. If it is true, it can reasonably be argued that it had no business sending its people in the first place and even less doing so during, as the fellow explained, the run-up to the winter Olympics when the authorities are understandably jumpy about security.
Had Greenpeace had a representative in the studio last night, he/she could either have 'fessed up to breaking promises and admitted that it had acted irresponsibly or - as we're all sure it can - offered convincing evidence that the claim is untrue. One begins to suspect it is true because the "green" side of the argument was in the event presented by the magnificently fatuous Vivienne Westwood. Perhaps Greenpeace was unusually reticent so it could wriggle off the hypocrisy hook.
It seems to me that, if those crewing the ship were unaware of the risks they were running, they were very stupid indeed. I do not believe they're that stupid - the ship is, as international maritime law demands, crewed by qualified seamen and everyone on board has technical or PR skills. They must surely know the law on piracy given that their explicit intent was to commit an act of same, one of a series in the Arctic over the last few years. OK, it's benign piracy with political rather than (direct) monetary gain in mind but it is nevertheless piracy.
The UK courts might look on such actions (pace Kingsnorth) as justifiable under the circs but Greenpeace does seem to be relying here on a perceived right to break international law with impunity. Had a similar stunt been carried out by a crew of Somalis in an unmarked boat, they'd have been shot out of hand and none of us the wiser, not even dear Dame Viv.
As it is, it was carried out not by desperados from a destitute nation but by awfully jolly nice white people acting on behalf of a rich organisation replete with EU and similar funding that no-one recalls electing and is accountable to no-one, not even on matters of fact such as the truth on climate. It chose to send an expensive ship to disrupt the commercial activities of a state-owned enterprise without that state apparently having any right to do anything about it. The arrogance is quite breathtaking - therein perhaps lies the stupidity.
Whatever, I loved this bit in the article: "The Greenpeace activists are being held for what the Russian courts have described as pretrial detention for two months, before facing piracy charges which carry a potential prison sentence of 15 years. 'Detention without trial is recognised as being unjust, unfair, and unacceptable,' Naidoo said".
Naidoo old chap, it's not detention without trial, it is, as the chap explained, pre-trial detention. At any one time, there are typically between 5,000 and 7,000 people in UK prisons on pre-trial detention or, as we call it here, remand. Even Faslane protestors have on occasion been banged up without bail on much lesser charges than piracy. Don't talk rot.
The upshot of the affair will be, I fear, that the Russians will drag it out for long enough to deter Greenpeace from repeating the exercise then release the detainees. As we've seen in the case of Syria, the regime is not entirely lacking in diplomatic skills. The result will probably be that any opportunity for competent environmental supervision of Gazprom's activities will be lost.
I recall being shocked to discover, when I was helping to research a pamphlet on Greenpeace planning-law hanky-panky called "Strange Bedfellows", the background to the Brent Spar fiasco:
"In the mid 1990s, disposal of the obsolete Brent Spar oil rig took centre stage in an international controversy over dumping at sea. Greenpeace was prominent in the campaign to stop the practice and, in 1995, its activists occupied the rig to prevent it being scrapped in the Atlantic. In what became a cause célèbre, Greenpeace used Shell's data to describe levels of pollutant on the rig but claimed it held 5,500 tonnes of oil where Shell had estimated 50 tonnes. As it turned out, the oil giants data were right: the activists had measured key parameters wrongly. Greenpeace director Lord Peter Melchett had hurriedly to apologise but neither he nor scientists for the group accepted any wider criticism, including suggestions by marine biologists that parts of the rig would have been better left in situ. There was, they stressed, a wider principle at stake to which other issues took second place. The notion was widely debated in scientific circles."
Nope, I do not like these people. They are, in their way, every bit as authoritarian as the Russians.
Interesting article in Spiegel on how the green energy revolution is working out in Germany. In short, not well.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/commentary-why-germany-is-waging-its-green-revolution-wrong-a-929693.html
@ Mike Jackson Oct 26, 2013 at 12:05 PM
Mike - I was most interested in the idea of SARF, the Fright Factors and Media Triggers as being recognisable in many themes, rather than the approach to Chalara disease control
Persistent little buggers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10406390/Greenpeace-activist-hangs-off-Eiffel-Tower.html
Russia has sparked an international outcry over its heavy-handed response after two Greenpeace activists in September scaled a state-owned oil platform to protest against Russian energy exploration in the Arctic.
Cyrille Cormier, a Greenpeace campaigner, said: "We are here to send a message to the French government to do everything to secure the release of the 28 militants and two journalists.
"Prime Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault is due to visit Russia next week. We are asking him to put this case on the agenda."
What international outcry? GP seem to be the only ones bothered
Wonder if Ayrault will quietly say 'please bang them up and throw away the key, we do not want them back'
Somebody has to stand up to Greenpeace. Unelected bully boys. A bit of time in the cooler will make the world a better place. At least we know 30 of the activist hooligans are out of action and many others will now be thinking twice.
From crocks of sh*t to gloating over the discomfort of those in a Siberian prison - one of the problems of thinking you are winning / have won is that you start behaving like the opposition.
Animal Farm anyone?
Oct 26, 2013 at 9:34 AM | Registered Commentergeoffchambers
----------------------------------------------------------
Geoff, I mostly wish that those who are misled by the Greenpeace 'message' learn just what a foolish message it is. Yes, I treated myself to a little sarcasm, but it appears to me that they also deserve some degree of punishment for their calculatedly public, reckless actions. Happily, what that punishment should be is not my decision.
Meanwhile, back in Oz, Jo Nova is on top form. ABC/BBC - who'da thought it.
http://joannenova.com.au/
geoffchambers
I understand your argument but as far as I am concerned this is not about "winning" but about what has become a terrorist organisation in all but name getting a little bit more of its comeuppance.
As I've said on this blog before (often enough to get boring!) I have had dealings with environmentalists in all sorts of spheres over 20 years and more and they are, with very few exceptions, pleasant and well-meaning people, and naive as hell and a pain in the backside mainly because their naivete allows them to be exploited by those who saw the opportunity to take over Greenpeace and Fiends of the Earth and WWF and turn them into militant organisations for whom the environment was secondary (if not tertiary and assuming it actually appeared on their agenda at all!).
The exude self-righteousness as a racehorse exudes sweat. As Breath if Fresh Air's link to the DT tells us, they are at it again — the French Regiment this time. They make sane people bash their heads on the wall in frustration. Even their natural supporters despair of the congenital cretinism that has come to permeate every aspect of every campaign.
The Brent Spar fiasco that DaveB refers to above was a case in point. They didn't "get the figures wrong"; they lied. Or at the very least they didn't care what the truth was and simply plucked a scary figure out of the air.
50? Peanuts. Add a couple of 00s and you have a cause. There was "a wider principle at stake".
Sorry for the rant but life in general is hard enough for many people on the planet without wet-behind-the-ears starry-eyed idiots making it worse by pretending to make it better. Better for whom, at the end of the day, I wonder.
Greenpeace et al - chain yourself to the gates of a paper mill, coal mine, power station etc. Don your Generation 5 NVGs and break in and trash years of GM research. Set up a sustainable protest camp. The camera crews arrive or you take your own and the wallopers stand around talking about the weekend's footy. After a suitable period bolt cutters are deployed or the camp dwellers shuffle off and everyone heads home waiting to see themselves on the evening news. It's all about the visuals ain't it. SOP in western countries.
The same thing would happen in the Russian Arctic wouldn't it? Well no it didn't and are they angry. Thirty over-aged juveniles charged with hooliganism (wonderful Russian humour) sitting on their sorry butts in cells in Murmansk. No throng of reporters outside the gaol, the courthouse or the interior ministry. Nothing. No media . Anywhere. The horror. It's like Othello's left ball - it's not right and it's not fair.
So how much sympathy do I have for these clowns? About a poofteenth of a femtomicron.
I don't know anything about the hierarchy of Greenpeace, the worry is behind the scenes and the motives and fanaticism which transfixes those open to malicious manipulation - who winds them up and makes them tick and to what real end?
Who sends out the orders - in that is there in place a senior leadership who formulate strategy and then are able because of some sort of seniority, experience or hegemony then make the key decisions and designating by edict to staffers and operations - delegate those orders?
Did someone order, these ideologically fixated maybe brave but ultimately - useful idiots to launch a rig take over and in doing so occasion an international act of piracy? Surely, someone must have known the Russians would not play very nice this time around, Putin said as much - don't they read the papers, watch the news. Are they impervious to other nations sensibilities and national security?
Young minds are vulnerable, it is far too easy to convince febrile minds of the perceived justice of so many wrong headed causes, when they've been brainwashed and readied, then what? Because, one thing can lead to another and how far could it go? One only has to read twitter feeds to 'taste' the hatred and venom targeted at naysayers it's only a short jump to something much blacker than Greenpeace.
Various organizations, use dubious and manipulative techniques that appal make one shudder with not only revulsion but incomprehension at the inhumanity. The animal right fanatics, quasi religious organizations are even worse - the Jonestown tragedy? There are young men, young women and even children inculcated into a death dealing cult of religious fanaticism - fighting a bloody, nasty and awful ideological war in Syria - a war fought in proxy, between the Sunni and Shia, and an existential battle between Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Did someone sending those Greenpeace young men and women out on a mission into Russian waters properly advise and tutor the crew and activists - or are they just cannon fodder?
Once again, we have to look deeper and scrutinize closely; the whole ethos, methods and practices of those such as Greenpeace - from the outside what one can see - it is not at all satisfactory.
Indeed, when one considers that despite the protestations and white lies of greenpeace members and fund raisers - the majority funding of organizations such as these - is from supra government agencies [the EU commission et al] and thus funnelled from the British and other European taxpayers.
Folks - do have a look (sorry - I'm no good at links) at Jo Nova's piece entitled: 'UK government hides its own graphic comparing nuclear to wind and solar' - because, apparently, the Renewable Energy Association described it as 'unhelpful'. Unhelpful to them, perhaps - and absolutely should be in the public domain - but the goverment withdrew the graphic in response to this complaint..
Actually, according to a response from chris y, the land areas shown (Hinkley Point C, 430 acres; solar, 130000 acres; wind, 250000 acres) are out (not Hinkley C, obviously) by a factor of six, and he explains why.
It really is time the public were made aware of just how stupid the government is to keep subsidising wind and solar...!
I don't really want to see Greenpeace protesters banged up for years, but I would feel a little more generous if they accepted for a moment that there are other ways of doing things and changing people's minds. They are so sure they are right, so blind and deaf to reason. Now the French government HAS to do what GP tells it. I can well believe that GP promised the Russians they wouldn't do it again and then just ignored their promise. If that's right, it's like contempt of court - it is not the actual offence - it is the unwillingness to modify your behaviour.
"Meanwhile, back in Oz, Jo Nova is on top form. ABC/BBC - who'da thought it.
http://joannenova.com.au/
Oct 26, 2013 at 1:14 PM | Unregistered CommenterTim"
Brilliant from Jo , I thought much the same when I watched it myself.
Link to the show is http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3876219.htm
Anyone from Das Speigel looking in
As Mark Lynas said at Battle of Ideas there is nothing more dangerous as a Nuclear Reactor getting hit by a Tsunami . As someone in the audience replied we don't Tsunamis in Britain.
Don't get Tsunamis in Germany neither.
PS Apparently we are supposed to be getting a hurricane on Monday.Might blow a few Wheelie Bins over.
For Australian listeners Fair report from BBC Radio ..quotes Gore, & explains the controversy but ends by quoting local residents supporting Abbott : Direct Audio Link
- BBC Correspondent Prog page
@Tim more on JoNova's story : Catalyst says consensus wrong on cholesterol – but unquestionable on climate
To introduce a new topic: I just read where Ethiopia is opening the world's largest wind farm. The question is: While Ethiopia has a rich cultural history they are backwards technically and economically, what could possibly go wrong installing a hugh technically complex array in such a country?
Al Gore he has got 7 homes to choose from if one should get destroyed by a forest fire.
Druids have the right idea.
Cycle of life the Trees grow the Trees Burn the Trees grow again with the same amount of Carbon Dioxide.
Australians are obviously not buying Climate Change anymore .Bored of it.
Greenpeace IS a terrorist organisation.
Its policies are directly responsible for civilian deaths throughout the world.
Personally I would place every single member of Greenpiss in a Siberian prison camp- heated and lit exclusively by "renewables".
Does anyone remember Stag Place, near Palace Road, Victoria in the 80's when it looked like this?
http://www.geolocation.ws/v/W/File:Stag%20Statue%20in%20Stag%20Place%20-%20geograph.org.uk%20-%201152206.jpg/-/en
I used to work in an office block overlooking that scene. Note the concrete flat topped prisms placed at intervals down the sides of the road to deter parking. In the picture the part of the road has been taped off by the police. There is a very good reason. Even on a normal blustery day it used to be rather entertaining to watch umbrellas invert without fail at that point. But on stormy days things were a lot more serious, for this innocent looking pavement lie in a vicious but invisible vortex between two flanking very tall buildings. It would physically lift people off their feet and blow them along. I saw one guy crouching down hugging one of those concrete prisms, both sliding down the road together for a number of yards. With each gust I saw water spouting out of street drains like the old faithful geyser. I saw police motorcyclists blown over and backwards coming to try and close it off with tapes that kept breaking. A large plate glass wall from an upper storey secretary's office blew completely out with a great plume of paper cups erupting into the sky. A passing red double decker bus was blown on its side. I heard that a lady was blown along and tragically killed by head injury. But even in the midst of all the carnage, some lads from the adjacent school were fooling about jumping from a mark into the vortex to see which one it carried downwind the furthest.
Remember what Greenpeace thinks about sceptics: “We know who you are. We know where you live. We know where you work. And we be many, but you be few.”
So the more of them that are safely in jail, the better, as far as I am concerned.
Be interesting to watch the live output from wind farms over the next day or so once the storm kicks in. It's low enough now, as it always is, but presumably most of them in the affected areas will be shut down.
http://standortkarte.oroe.info/index2.html?lang=en
Also go here http://www.geog.ox.ac.uk/~dcurtis/NETA.html and unclick every other power source except for wind.
Made me laugh.
Fukushima still has the potential to destroy the entire human race. It shows just how greedy the Greens have been oil company loot that they think this a good idea. It's actually their worst nightmare.
Brown calls for eight new nuclear plants (July 14 2008)
New stations to be part of 'nuclear renaissance' ·
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/14/nuclearpower.gordonbrown
Yesterday's news from the Financial Times: Investors in oil, gas and coal companies are urging the companies not to invest in future production capacity because it may never be used. Basically, it appears that investors would rather have profits dividended back to them than reinvested in future production capacity.
Apart from being a means to create a self fulfilling prophecy, this seems to indicate that the long term nature of investment in the business of extracting resources is being superceded by the get-rich-quick mentality of our capital markets. We've already seen how dangerous that is in other areas and it has the potential to kill long term investment in energy capacity. Rebuilding that capability in a hurry when it is found to be necessary will be incredibly expensive compared to long term production capacity planning.
One of the Greenpeace activists was quoted in the paper about feelings of desperation about the cold in her cell. She mentions that she has to wear her hat to bed and that she fears the upcoming winter.
In other words she is experiencing what the poor experience every winter. She doesn't make the connection that she is condemning the poor to this situation by her organizations actions. I hope the Russians make the activists take a tour of the morgues where the poor who have frozen to death are and that they ask them why they are blocking the generation of energy that keep these people alive?
esmith: Can you explain how Fukushima can destroy the entire human race?
Having seen an assortment of videos of what Greenpiece got up to up there - which it strikes me they aren't too keen to have distributed unedited - it resembles something akin to aquatic football hooliganism and behaviour that would definitely have plod out in full ninja kit in Zodiacs if practiced inshore near a leisure beach in the UK...
Thus far little challenge has been made in the MSM of Greenpiece's footsoldiers assuming the mantle of martyrdom in the cause of saving the planet - a stance their "management" have been quick (planned?) to capitalise on - Wednesday I saw paid for JC Deceaux billboards on M6 motorway service areas with doe-eyed "victims" gurning out soulfully from expensive aluminium and plexiglass iluminated billboards.
And the poor things have to wear their hats to bed and there's no vegan food ?
diddums
The wheels seem to be completely off the Gore wagon.
http://newnostradamusofthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/al-gores-24-hours-of-reality-exceeds.html
Oct 26, 2013 at 6:25 PM | Unregistered CommentereSmiff
Really just 7 billion not the solar system maybe the galaxy or maybe the UNIVERSE !!!!! geeze get a handle on your alarmist CRAP. ;>)
The BBC when reporting the effect of green taxes on our energy bills will almost invariably refer to the % charge contained within a typical dual fuel bill.
Since the green charges on the generally larger gas bill are small, this obscures the much larger and fast growing charge on the electricity bill. It also obscures the fact that the most severe burden of green taxes falls on relatively poor people in rented accommodation heating their home with electricity. Such people have little if any possibility of benefitting from solar panels, loft insulation or any of the other green subsidies grabbed by the relatively wealthy folks who own their own home.
The BBC no doubt sees this as a result. It has told no lies but has been effective in preventing some of the uncomfortable facts about green taxes from becoming too widely known.
Phillip Bratby. Sorry, I didn't see your message.
Read Wasserman's contribution in this.
Fuel Removal From Fukushima's Reactor 4 Threatens 'Apocalyptic' Scenario
In November, TEPCO set to begin to remove fuel rods whose radiation matches the fallout of 14,000 Hiroshima bombs
https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/10/24-3
I have no (political) ideological stance on this. However I see nuclear power generation and its secrecy as being an unfortunate artefact of the cold war. In Britain, the Labour Party have a very unhealthy relationship to the nuclear industry.
Miliband's partner was preferred counsel for E.on when they won UK nuclear contract (Horizon consortium).
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2009/mar/14/miliband-thornton-telegraph-energygirlfriend-is-nuclear-lawyer.html
lorne50
Sorry, I realised it was alarmist, but I didn't have time to think of an intelligent qualification. I do believe we have been lied to from day one on Fukushima.
Sorry, I realised it was alarmist, but I didn't have time to think of an intelligent qualification. I do believe we have been lied to from day one on Fukushima.
Oct 26, 2013 at 8:04 PM | Unregistered CommentereSmiff
Next time think of Chernobyl where wild life has moved back in. ;>)
True, but
Scottish sheep farms (2,500 km away) finally free (more than 30 years later) of Chernobyl fallout
BY KEVIN RAWLINSON AND RACHEL HOVENDEN WEDNESDAY 07 JULY 2010
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scottish-sheep-farms-finally-free-of-chernobyl-fallout-2020059.html
Herman Van Rompuy, our President, on 'election' in 2009 (according to rumour via a Bilderburg selection interview), 'hailed 2009 as
"the first year of global governance": a reference to the wrong-headed G20 agenda. He went on to describe the Copenhagen climate summit as "another step towards the global management of our planet".'
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100017487/herman-van-rompuy-today-the-eu-tomorrow-the-world/
Apparently he was up for a twitter Q and A. Guido has the story
http://order-order.com/2013/10/21/herman-van-rompuy-meets-uk-twitter-users/
When the storm the Met Office is forecasting for Monday strikes, how long will it be before the BBC finds someone to assert that the storm is a sign of climate change, or global warming as it was formerly called?