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« Transparency and culpability | Main | Honing his hypocrisy »

Saturday open thread

In my absence, here is an open thread for any climate and energy news today.

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Reader Comments (111)

A couple of years in the gulag for that mob of doom mongers will do the world a lot of good. I am heartened by the Russian actions against those hooligans and the general international indifference to their imprisonment. May it last long. What did they expect? A slap on the wrist again and a safe journey home with their PR mission accomplished? Let them pay the price for once for their calculated foolishness.

Oct 26, 2013 at 9:09 PM | Unregistered CommentersHx

Sorry, I realised it was alarmist, but I didn't have time to think of an intelligent qualification. I do believe we have been lied to from day one on Fukushima.
Oct 26, 2013 at 8:04 PM eSmiff

I'd certainly agree that it is unlikely that TEPCO are up to the job.

1. They were not up to operating nuclear plant under normal conditions (falsification of inspection data, lack of planning for unlikely but possible events - eg sunami).

2. Lack of planning and training meant that had to make up the management of the wrecked reactors as they went along. They were still maintaining that the reactors were in good condition when it was pretty obvious to the world at large that they were already totally wrecked (from hours without cooling).

3. Dismantling wrecked reactors is a new business for them. They will be making this up as they go along too.

Oct 26, 2013 at 9:10 PM | Registered CommenterMartin A

'Russia’s RT here reports the lesser hooliganism charge carries a maximum sentence of 7 years in prison.

‘The actions of those involved in the criminal case have been reclassified to the charge of hooliganism,’ the spokesman for the Investigative Committee, Vladimir Markin, told the RIA Novosti news agency.”

There seem to be conflicting claims on how long the activists may have to spend time in jail if convicted of hooliganism. CTV news here reports that the charge carries 15 days in prison only. The piracy charges carry a 15-year prison term, while hooliganism is usually punished by 15 days in jail or a fine.” That is likely very inaccurate. Back in the 1980s a young nutjob German pilot Matthias Rust famously flew his small Cessna through then Soviet airspace and landed on Red Square in Moscow, embarrassing the Soviet empire. For that deed he was, according to Wikipedia, “sentenced to four years in a general-regime labor camp for hooliganism, disregard of aviation laws and breaching of the Soviet border. He was never transferred to a labor camp and instead served his time at the high security Lefortovo temporary detention facility in Moscow. Two months later, Reagan and Gorbachev agreed to sign a treaty to eliminate intermediate-range nuclear weapons in Europe, and the Supreme Soviet ordered Rust to be released in August 1988 as a goodwill gesture to the West.”

Oct 26, 2013 at 10:32 PM | Registered CommenterPharos

Check out the "top" 400+ warmists on Twitter H/T Tom Nelson

Mark the ones not making big $$$ of it won't need a lot of ink

Oct 26, 2013 at 10:47 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

My favourite quote of the day

'adding fuel to the ire' (para 2 below)

Oct 26, 2013 at 11:09 PM | Registered CommenterPharos

Daryl Hannah? No 8 - above DECC and MM?
This is like Bodysnatchers when you find out your sister has been taken. AIIEEEEEEEE!

Oct 26, 2013 at 11:46 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Reed

I don't think the GP 30 have anything to complain about.

Members of Pussy Riot were convicted of hooliganism, and this is what life is like in a Russian prison:

Greenpeace are in the process of meeting Russian reality.

Oct 27, 2013 at 12:06 AM | Unregistered Commenterredc

Re Greenpeace -

When one of the co-founders (Patrick Moore) left and told us all that it was now run by nutters, even those who were disposed towards them should have taken some note.

They are an anti-human, anti-democratic, anti-business (and thus anti-jobs) self-serving organisation funded by Western governments. They have completely subsumed the real Greens (my Greens) and made them totally subservient.

I don't revel in the situation that they find themselves in Russia, but they deserve anything that they have coming to them.

Oct 27, 2013 at 12:08 AM | Registered Commenterretireddave


on the fast freeze thread, Enthropic Idiot is looking for an answer

Oct 27, 2013 at 1:07 AM | Unregistered Commenterdiogenes


I don't do entropy. I'm recharging my batteries.

Oct 27, 2013 at 1:09 AM | Unregistered CommentereSmiff

As someone in the audience replied we don't Tsunamis in Britain.
Oct 26, 2013 at 2:42 PM | Unregistered Commenter jamspid

Unfortunately, we do...

Oct 27, 2013 at 3:59 AM | Unregistered Commenterdc

More from the BBC on the Greenpeace "activists".

Oct 27, 2013 at 5:34 AM | Registered CommenterPhillip Bratby

dc...,the last recorded event was over EIGHT THOUSAND YEARS ago.

Pardon me if I don't rush out immediately to build a berm...or something! :)


Oct 27, 2013 at 7:40 AM | Unregistered CommenterMailman

FWIW I emailed the Russian Embassy supporting their action on GP. If enough people do this it might help ;-)

Oct 27, 2013 at 7:41 AM | Unregistered CommenterGummerMustGo

Sympathy - "About a poofteenth of a femtomicron." Likewise, GrantB.
If you are young, inexperienced and idealistic, greenpeace might have some attractions.
If you are old, wise and experienced by past interactions with greenpeace, you would be right to regard them as subversive, dangerous, irrational and naïve.

Oct 27, 2013 at 7:53 AM | Unregistered CommenterGeoff Sherrington


The Bishophillbillies playing copy and paste Links Poker.

I call your Under Sea Earth Quakes in the Atlantic Causing a Possible UK Fukashima

and i raise you sir

Carbonation in rivers causing smaller penis size in Otters Humans will be next.

Your call

Oct 27, 2013 at 7:58 AM | Unregistered Commenterjamspid

eSmiff - undue worries about Fukushima?
Here is a report from the last World Nuclear News, which is regarded as pretty level with its info,
IAEA mission to Fukushima contaminated areas reports
A 16-member International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) mission has reported on remediation in
the contaminated areas northwest of the Fukushima power plant. It said that decontamination efforts
were commendable but driven by unrealistic targets. If annual radiation dose would be below 20
mSv, this level was “acceptable and in line with the international standards and with the
recommendations from the relevant international organisations, e.g. ICRP, IAEA, UNSCEAR and
WHO.” The clear implication is that people should be allowed to return home in such areas.
Furthermore, the report said, the government should increase efforts to communicate this to the
public, and should explain that its long-term goal of achieving an additional individual dose of 1
mSv/yr is unrealistic and unnecessary in the short term. Also, there is potential to produce more food
safely in contaminated areas.
WNN 21/10/13.

Oct 27, 2013 at 8:00 AM | Unregistered CommenterGeoff Sherrington

Sorry miss deal correct link .

Oct 27, 2013 at 8:19 AM | Unregistered Commenterjamspid

Geoff Sherrington

The IAEA is the nuclear IPCC (both UN orgs) There is about to be an enormous expansion of nuclear in the UK and USA so enormous scepticism is appropriate.

The issue about Fukushima is unit 4 clear up.

Oct 27, 2013 at 8:20 AM | Unregistered CommentereSmiff

esmiff: There won't be an enormous expansion of nuclear in the USA with so much cheap gas about. There won't be an enormous expansion of nuclear in the UK either. One power station isn't much of an enormous expansion, it is just a replacement of soon to be closed old plants.

Oct 27, 2013 at 8:25 AM | Registered CommenterPhillip Bratby

Phillip Bratby. It's certainly planned. Same in the USA. It could change.

Brown calls for eight new nuclear plants (July 14 2008)

New stations to be part of 'nuclear renaissance' ·

New Labour produced a White Paper in May 2007 called The Energy White Paper: Meeting the Energy Challenge:

The head of media relations at that EDF is a man called Andrew Brown who happens to be the Prime Minister's brother.

EDF takeover of British Energy cleared

The European commission today cleared the £12.5bn takeover of Britain's main nuclear power operator British Energy by French state-owned group EDF.

The commission said the deal could go ahead after EDF agreed to sell two power stations and make a site available to a competitor to build one of the UK's planned new third-generation atomic power stations

Oct 27, 2013 at 9:06 AM | Unregistered CommentereSmiff

esmiff: I know the history of nuclear in the UK. We have had lots of promises of new plants and fleets of new plants, but all the rhetoric has counted for nothing. In the last 30 years we've had Sizewell B (which was supposed to be first of a fleet of 5) and all the expertise has been lost or sold to the Japanese. Now we may have a twin reactor plant at Hinkley C and maybe more to come at Sizewell, but I wouldn't count any chickens yet.

Oct 27, 2013 at 9:12 AM | Registered CommenterPhillip Bratby

Phillip Bratby

That was before imminent, catastrophic climate change. The turbines need nuclear as backup or they are useless. As we know.

Oct 27, 2013 at 9:40 AM | Unregistered CommentereSmiff

Vicky Pryce is on the BBC again this morning

- The global level of CO2 is what it is.
- The global temperature is what it is.
and if anyone is sure of any relationship with them they are not making much money at Ladbrokes.

- Catastrophe signs ? Most major indicators show the gentle incline they always have, or if there is a bigger trend can be matched by other indicators moving the other way.
- Catastrophe doesn't look likely for anyone alive today.

- Every time Harrabin or Shukman open their mouths money falls into the pockets of Grantham's biggreenhedgefund.

- The BBC seems like a club-room for people who meet at the same dinner parties; as politician's pop up on the BBC without any mention of their conflict of interests from Green energy corps etc, likewise hip celebrity activists and scientists with activist connections. Combining to push policy in one way.
Doesn't matter if you have both a criminal conviction & biggreenenergy connections you'll be given a platfrom.
- Commercial TV isn't an alternative force as it needs to pander to people who sell stuff ..and whose going to buy solutions if they tell them their is no problem.

- Whereas the BBC can put Bake-off on the news again, again, again it can't afford the time to air any climate controversies the narrative stands fine.

Oct 27, 2013 at 10:18 AM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

The fears of nuclear radiation are orders of magnitude greater than the reality. From the official Fukushima report in may this year :"No radiation-related deaths or acute effects have been observed among nearly 25,000 workers (including TEPCO employees and contractors) involved at the accident site".
David Ropeik writes in the New York Times:

Oct 27, 2013 at 10:19 AM | Registered Commenterktwop

The BBC could lose its exclusive right to the licence fee if it does not tackle a “culture” of secrecy, waste and unbalanced reporting, a senior Cabinet minister warns.

Grant Shapps, the chairman of the Conservative Party, challenged the corporation to undertake dramatic changes in the wake of a series of scandals and accusations of bias.

In a major intervention understood to have been made with the knowledge of Downing Street, he said that the Government would consider whether the BBC can keep receiving all the proceeds of the licence fee – £145.50 each year from every household with a television – after 2016, when its Royal Charter expires.

About time!

Oct 27, 2013 at 10:33 AM | Unregistered CommenterLord Beaverbrook

... From the official Fukushima report in may this year :"No radiation-related deaths or acute effects have been observed among nearly 25,000 workers (including TEPCO employees and contractors) involved at the accident site".....
Oct 27, 2013 at 10:19 AM ktwop

Presumably that excludes the workers who received beta-ray skin burns shortly after the accident.

Oct 27, 2013 at 10:52 AM | Registered CommenterMartin A

@geoffchambers: Geoff I hardly think we're putting ourselves in the place of the animals in Animal Farm by approving of the Russians taking action against the GP terrorists. They have assumed for too long that they have the "right" to do as they wish short of murder, they threaten people, pull up GM crops, have supported the ban on the use of DDT consistently up until the Stockholm Convention 2004, and told us the ban had been lifted until the "There is no list, and anyway your name's not on it moment" when the WHO lifted the ban in 2006. They lobby and take to court people who are trying to introduce golden rice as a cure for VAD and then, as Zac Goldsmith did in the Guardian this week tell us that the rice isn't ready for planting something refuted by the golden rice web site. They are evil with a capital E. They have now come up a government that is indifferent with a capital "I" to their noble cause, and are squealing that they're peaceful protestors, they're not, they are terrorists with a capital "T". Unfortunately they won't be incarcerated the Russkis are too clever to have to deal with the protests GP will organise to keep a bunch of terrorists banged up, my bet is they'll let 'em go. If they don't they deserve what they get, whatever that is, they went to the Arctic intending to board the oil rig and stop it working, that's not piracy in the strict sense, but comes pretty close.

Oct 27, 2013 at 10:56 AM | Unregistered Commentergeronimo


... Presumably that excludes the workers who received beta-ray skin burns shortly after the accident...

Presumably so. Beta-ray skin burns are similar to sunburn, so I guess they would not be considered to be significant damage. Though uncomfortable...

Oct 27, 2013 at 11:06 AM | Unregistered CommenterDodgy Geezer

Reading your post and in the light of various others on the subject of Greenpeace, including a couple of my own, I was suddenly reminded of Oliver Cromwell.
It's worth quoting more of this speech than simply the last bit. The official record of the speech was expunged in 1659 (the year the Central England Temperature record began though I'm sure that is a coincidence!) but this version is reckoned to be one of the most accurate: -

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.
Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?
Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.
You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!

Oct 27, 2013 at 12:47 PM | Registered CommenterMike Jackson

The Greenpeace 30 will cop for charges that can only attract a guilty plea. It may not be full-scale 'Piracy' but by lowering the bar the Russians will ensure they firstly secure a conviction and secondly can justifiably give them all Christmas lunch in Siberia.

Sentences for lower level offences will still be long enough to deter any more stupidity from Greenpeace, whilst conveniently being short enough to not trigger a full-on international outcry. If they get 18 months to 5 years (for ring leaders) then no government is going to intervene at those levels, especially on the back of guilty pleas.

Chuck in parole and they'll be out of Russia in a couple of years.

Oct 27, 2013 at 1:16 PM | Unregistered CommenterCheshirered

Lord Beaverbrook, as a perhaps cynical old policy analyst (who has worked in broadcasting, albeit in another country), I wouldn't get too excited.

In my experience, all that these things mean is "back off." They certainly don't represent any meaningful change in the offing.

Think about it - what meaningful change (apart from hugely increased taxpayer funding) has there been to the BBC in living memory?

I speak from a lifetime's experience of Australia's ABC.Same story. They have their own consumer complaints system, which finds that at least 9 times out of 10, the complaints are rubbish. See Gerald Henderson's blog. They were granted a bunch of digital stations, which they fill with repeats or close down at night because they've got nothing to show. Meanwhile, other entrants into the market are shut out.

Yet, they get (at our expense) to trumpet rubbish like that last week's NSW bushfires had something to do with CO2 emissions - something which even the IPCC does not claim.

The point is, the BBC's acolytes will probably scream "intimidation" if asked to be even-handed.

Oct 27, 2013 at 1:21 PM | Unregistered Commenterjohanna

Anyone ever heard Vicky Price speaking voice.

Work out what accent that is supposed to be.

Oct 27, 2013 at 2:16 PM | Unregistered Commenterjamspid


Unsure how the ABC is set up but ultimately UK government sets the terms and conditions of BBC operation and revenue. After more than a decade of socialist ring masters allowing a left wing generation X environment to grow it's time the reins were yanked.

Oct 27, 2013 at 2:28 PM | Unregistered CommenterLord Beaverbrook

Might be interesting to watch the fate of the windmills tonight.

Oct 27, 2013 at 2:54 PM | Unregistered CommenterTinyCO2

That's this one.

Oct 27, 2013 at 3:49 PM | Registered CommenterPhillip Bratby

TinyCO2, Phillip,

If there is a tote put me down for 7 between 18:00 Sunday and 18:00 Monday.
£1 a windmill all entrants, apart from winner, to forfeit winners guess X £1 to Bishops tip jar.
Do we need a discussion thread to post updates?

Oct 27, 2013 at 3:59 PM | Unregistered CommenterLord Beaverbrook

@Phillip Bratby so your link shows a wind tubine fell down saturday night in Devon before the storm has really begun
..I would call that news, but it was in none of the broadcasts I heard/saw today
... playing it down seems like a favour to some one

Oct 27, 2013 at 4:27 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Lord Beaverbrook, after all the BIG STORM hoopla, I'm not sure I'd even vote that it'll be that windy tonight. No matter how good the MET Office gets, we have to remember that Mother Nature hates warmists. She'll be trying to decide if it will be funnier to play pin ball with windmills or veer off target at the last minute.

Oct 27, 2013 at 4:34 PM | Unregistered CommenterTinyCO2

^^ Mailman

Indeed! My point is simply that historically they have occurred and therefore cannot be dismissed as future impossibilities.

Oct 27, 2013 at 5:06 PM | Unregistered Commenterdc


VIcky Pryce (aka Vasiliki Courmouzis apparently) is Greek, hence the accent.

Oct 27, 2013 at 5:48 PM | Unregistered CommenterMessenger

"My point is simply that historically they have occurred and therefore cannot be dismissed as future impossibilities".

Prehistorically CO2 was greater than 400 parts per million and may will be again so why are we worried about man made CO2

How many parts of the 400 is actually man made and how much is naturally occurring.

Oct 27, 2013 at 5:53 PM | Unregistered Commenterjamspid

VIcky Pryce aka Vasiliki Courmouzis jail byrd
Is she still electronically tagged around her ankle

I heard her speaking at Battle of Ideas last week

She was making out she was some sort of an Economist

She was saying self imposed Fuel Poverty and Austerity all part of the fight against
Climate Change
She happily pronounces on how the rest of us should live our lives

But i don't tell people how fast to drive down the Motorway

Oct 27, 2013 at 6:12 PM | Unregistered Commenterjamspid


The last time CO2 reached 400ppm was in the Pliocene, some 3 million years ago.

Global average temperature were 2-3C warmer, with the Arctic 10C warmer. Sea levels were 30 metres higher.

Oct 27, 2013 at 6:25 PM | Unregistered Commenterentropic man

How many parts of the 400 is actually man made and how much is naturally occurring.

Oct 27, 2013 at 5:53 PM | jamspid


At this stage in an interglacial CO2 concentration would naturally be 280ppm.

42% of the current CO2 is ours.

Oct 27, 2013 at 6:28 PM | Unregistered Commenterentropic man

42.00% ?

Oct 27, 2013 at 7:05 PM | Registered CommenterMartin A

Windmill down in SW england before thge main storm arrives. !!!

Oct 27, 2013 at 7:22 PM | Unregistered CommenterStephen Richards


The last time CO2 reached 400ppm was in the Pliocene, some 3 million years ago.

Global average temperature were 2-3C warmer, with the Arctic 10C warmer. Sea levels were 30 metres higher.

So EM, if CO² is the only driver as you and your fellow idiots claim, the temp now should 10°c warmer in the arctic. Hello, there is more ice now than since 2000 and 1934.

Oct 27, 2013 at 7:24 PM | Unregistered CommenterStephen Richards

The answer to everything is 42, plucked out thin air.

Oct 27, 2013 at 7:25 PM | Unregistered CommenterSpeckled Jim

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