Monday
Jun202011
by 
Bishop Hill
Bishop Hill So what about solar?
Jun 20, 2011 Climate: WG3 Energy: solar Following on from the previous posting, this thread is for any findings from a perusal of the solar chapter.
Jun 20, 2011 Climate: WG3 Energy: solar
Reader Comments (35)
Everywhere you look there seems to be strange associations. For an example, which I selected haphazardly, see the seemingly innocuous comment on solar-powered lighting:
Young, W.R. (1996). History of Applying Photovoltaics to Disaster Relief. Florida Solar Energy
Center, Cocoa, FL, USA, 16 pp.
Young’s paper, according to the title page, is “Prepared by: Sandia National Laboratories P.O. Box 5800 Albuquerque, NM87185-0753”.
Sandia, according to its website:
According to its website,
It seems pertinent to observe that many of these solar authors are at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) - which has a budget of $328 million (2009) (according to Wikipedia), dedicated to raising public awareness and outreach - on solar energy.
Interesting, the redoutable Greenpeace employee Herr Teske is a reference.
"Richter, C., S. Teske, and R. Short (2009). Concentrating Solar Power: Global Outlook 2009 –
Why Renewable Energy is Hot. Greenpeace International, SolarPACES (Solar Power and
Chemical Energy Storage), and ESTELA (European Solar Thermal Electricity Association), 88
pp. Available at: www.greenpeace."
Pointman
The "3.9.1 Near-term forecasts" on page 75 considers four scenarios. Three out the four appear to have been provided by Greenpeace. It's okay though, it's based on the work of Teske et al ...
Pointman
Teske is also cited on p. 75:
Teske, S., T. Pregger, S. Simon, T. Naegler, W. Graus, and C. Lins (2010). Energy [R]evolution 2010—a sustainable world energy outlook. Energy Efficiency, doi:10.1007/s12053-010-9098-y.
Somehow, I don’t think that here in Tasmania, which is in southern Australia, I’d recoup the costs of, say, a Sunpro Gas Continuous Boosted Solar Tank (250l, with two Solar panels)
Estimated cost including installation $6399
Small-scale Technology Certificates $560
Federal Rebate $1000
Estimated TOTAL $4839
Now, my total costs for hot water is well under $500 a year; I don’t think that I’d recoup between $2,419 and 1935.60 a year if I purchase a Sunpro solar/gas system.
O/t a little, but relevant if true.
A headline post today by John O'sullivan on the "ClimateRealists" blog says a 'whistleblower' has accused NASA of fiddling their readings re:sunspots to disguise the current decline.
If confirmed, this whole solar energy chapter may be optimistic to say the least!
Deadman --
The reference is to "energy payback time", which (I believe) is defined as the amount of time that the system has to be in service, before it has produced as much useful energy as was used in its manufacture.
Economic considerations do not apply in this context.
HaroldW,
Yes, my potential to recoup costs over even twenty-five years is different from the amount of time the unit would recoup its own costs of manufacture. My point is that, even if in the Tasmanian sun the payback time really were two and a half years (which I seriously doubt, even if I had full sun, all day), that would hardly persuade me to invest in something which would cost me over $4,000 a year in order to save, at most $200 a year—though, of course, I’d be saving the planet.
oops: “over $4,000
a yearin order to save ...”.Deadman
Oh yes, strange associations do abound, don't they?
The hugely influential, constantly cited and apparently government-run National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) is actually not so independent as one might think.
Click through its website and you find this:
Eh? What's the Alliance for Sustainable Energy LLC then? LLC stands for Limited Liability Company. Doesn't sound very public, does it?
That's because it isn't. It's a kind of front for Battelle and MRI Global.
Yup, say hello to the Military-Industrial Complex everyone.
[Originally posted on the Ideological money laundering thread - apologies to those who have seen this before.]
Googled 'Margaret Mann' - too tempting. ZT and others correct NREL. BBD on the ball as usual.
Interesting there seemed to be no assessment of energy density for solar nor any variation in output with overcast conditions.
Researching 'solar' with a view to exploiting the stupid subsidies of 43.3p/ kw hr guaranteed by EU for 25 yrs. it seems even chimney shadows produce a measurable fall in output.
The sales blurb suggests a break even point at 9 yrs. for a 16 panel Kw system - maybe...
I enjoyed (NOT) reading this on page 6 of the Solar Executive Summary.
"An important social benefit of solar technologies is their potential to improve the health and livelihood opportunities for many of the world’s poorest populations—addressing some of the gap in availability of modern energy services for the roughly 1.4 billion people who do not have access to electricity and the 2.7
billion people who rely on traditional biomass for home cooking and heating needs"
If we are to believe Mr/Mrs/Ms Wikki then they've forgotten about this.
" In early 2008 it was estimated by Energywatch that there were around 4.4 million households in fuel poverty in the UK, with just over 3 million in England alone.[5] This was more than double the number in 2003"
Any guesses what these figures will be by 2020?
Of course there are odd niche applications where solar may be a good idea.
And of course, if it is becoming the "mature technology" that the Greenies suggest, then they won't need all those subsidies and sky-high feed in tariffs, will they?
But I find it hard to imagine that solar will ever be much use for base load generation.
Just because it is allegedly feasible to make love standing up in a hammock, doesn't mean it is the best or most enjoyable approach.
Martin B..... is it feasible ? Tantric possibly but I've probably been using the wrong technique (lol).
Interesting what Battelle has to say about the research it sponsors and the business opportunities that may result:
Our business consulting services integrate Battelle’s research and technology centers worldwide to deliver innovative and multi-disciplinary solutions at the strategic, mission, and technical levels.
Ah, just integration. No money involved then.
Some of these scientists ought to concentrate on using solar power, plus CO2, plus water to grow food to feed the starving and reduce poverty caused by shortages of food.
I do not know if the exact process of photosynthesis is understood, but it does not matter, because plants have been able to do it since before man's arrival on the planet. Man can increase productivity, but not by covering arable land with concrete and photovoltaic cells
Although there has been much recently about new solar technology and decreased cost , I have yet to hear of anything that deals effectively with the rotation of the planet on its axis nor with movement around the sun , which cause solar many problems through the 'small problems' of nighttime and the seasons. Anyone heard something on this front ?
Half OT:
An advert for Sharp Solar on UK TV this evening had, amongst a long list of its alleged achievements over the past 50 years "lowering electricity prices".
Assuming that my ears didn't deceive me, I can't imagine for a second that the cheaper electricity claim is true, certainly not recently and certainly not in the UK.
Good news for those of you looking at buying solar panels -- the Chinese have glutted the market. And for those of you owning solar stocks, be ready for a haircut.
Sell Solar Short!!
Well shucks folks. When you get rich from promoting solar energy you will be able to waste as much energy as Al "an inconvenient moron" Gore and THEN you will save just oodles by buying solar systems from your own companies not to mention the gubmint tax breaks you will profit from!!
I love solar power for heating my hot water! The running cost, apart from the pressure pump is especially free! Then again Its 09.00 here in Cyprus and the temperature is already 28 deg C! Time for a dip in the pool whilst you lot get ready for wet Wimbledon! ;-)
" solar power for heating my hot water"
Is that PV, or the old-fashioned (and cheap and effective) heat collecting panels?
What we have discovered is that we are dealing with various NGO agendas being dressed up as science reports.
Whenever we read the phrase climate-change we now know we are dealing with faith based ideology and the profit motive.
One of the lead authors is Honghua Xu.
There's a person of the same name serving on the board of a company called JA Solar. Same person I wonder?
http://www.jasolar.com/news_releases_detail.php?id=63
Looks to be.
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/JA_Solar_Holdings,_(JASO)/Honghua_Independent_Director
Pointman
"JA Solar Holdings Co., Ltd., (Nasdaq:JASO), one of the world's largest manufacturers of high-performance solar cells and solar power products, today announced its financial results for its first quarter ended March 31, 2011. "
http://investors.jasolar.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=208005&p=RssLanding&cat=news&id=1561715
They're doing rather well.
Pointman
"even chimney shadows produce a measurable fall in output"
As does bird poop. Mask one cell of a series-connected group in a panel and you lose the output from the whole group. Large commercial installations spend a lot on regular cleaning, but that's not always easy on your roof...
Mac
WRT SRREN, I think it would be more accurate to say that we have discovered that when we read the phrase 'renewable energy' we are dealing with faith-based ideology and the profit motive.
James P
Are the cells really wired up in series array? That's a singularly daft way of designing a panel. Perhaps it's just cheaper than doing it properly, in parallel.
There would have to be some series connections between individual cells in a panel just to get a desired voltage, but from the one installation I have seen, the panels are connected in parallel for amperage.
Any PV experts out there?
Thomas Alva Edison (February 11, 1847 – October 18, 1931)
Nikola Tesla (Serbian: Никола Тесла; 10 July 1856 – 7 January 1943)
Imagine you are now in the year 1852, in London, Paris, New York, Tokyo, Peiking (Bayjing?). Edison is five years old. Tesla hasn't even been born yet. There is a strange smell that reaches your nose. It is pollution. Air pollution. It is also rather dark at night and you can see billions of stars. But there is that overpowering smell. It's everywhere. People have been complaining for centuries about that smell, but no one ever really does anything about it. Lately, women have become more excited about it and have threatened to take action it someone doesn't clean up the damn streets. But, as luck would have it, someone gets the bright idea to demand that women have the right to vote and the smell continues and gets all the stonger over time. Some people still complain; some even make it their cause for life. 1852 was a good year.
Think of 2011, as the majority of others then once thought of 1852. It's a might difficult to get rid of something if there's nothing to replace the something with. Currently, there's nothing to replace oil and gas with, so we're just going to have to put up with their consequences for a while. Hummm.. history does have something to teach us, doesn't it?
James P and BBD
From the yotties press, it is my understanding that they are wired in this manner. Just the shadow from a shroud (wire helping support the mast, not a large piece of cloth) will stuff the output.
Deadman, I'm in SE Queensland and I just did the solar hot water calculation. There are only two us in the house and hot water (electric off peak storage) costs us A$300 per year. I priced a solar hot water installation at around A$4500 out of pocket after subsidies(real cost ~$6500). If I replace the 160 liter tank with a 250 liter (about $1000 and the present tank is old and will need replacement anyway)the electricity company will charge only 9c/KW-h instead of 13c taking my hot water costs down to $200 p.a.. I need to pay $75 p.a.for electrical boosting if I go solar (minimum charge). No way does it pay me to go solar. I can make the $125 p.a. and another $85 by putting the $3500 in the bank at call.
If there were 5 or 6 people in the house it may pay.
Don Pablo - yes, panels are usually connected in strings (series) to get the desired voltage for the grid tie inverter. Then if it is a larger system there are numerous strings in parallel. Series also keeps the current down so reduces cable costs and losses (a 80W 12v panel typically generates around 5 amps so even 4 of them in parallel means you need heavy cables). The system you have seen may have been off-grid - where you only need 12v or 24v to charge the battery bank but conversely the currents are usually much higher than grid tie installations. I am no expert but have set up a basic off-grid system and also a small grid-tie using 2 strings of 4 x 80W panels and a Mastervolt 600 (which makes it all easy). I never bothered setting up a import/export contract to claim the ROCs, I just took a little pleasure watching the electricity meter going backwards or slowing down whenever it was sunny. They are economic madness in northern Europe as there's very little output from October to March when demand is highest.
Pete H in Cyprus
Green :-) with envy i am, love the island, will be holidaying there in sept & would love to retire there.
glad solar makes sense for you (not so sure about me in IOM or old home in Scotland), is it a new build & if so is it standard with pump etc... ?
thanks for any feedback.