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M Courtney:

On immigration it is worth remembering that, in the short term, immigrants are definitely beneficial to the economy. They come here to work. They are young and risk-taking (emigration away from one’s support network is a risk). They are just the sort of entrepreneurial spirits that the UK needs.

And in the long-term? It has been suggested that when they retire, get old, get ill and need scare that they become a cost. That may be true but so what? That is true of people in general, not immigrants.

You are conflating what I would call 19th/20th century immigration with the current type, which is incorrect. 19th/20th century immigration was a permanent relocation - travel was difficult and expensive, you made the trip and stayed there.

Their reasons for moving were usually the result of war, ethnic cleansing, or oppression. For example, the two main waves of Italian immigration to the UK - the first in the late 19th C was caused by drought and famine, the second in the 1930s by fascism. People were fleeing for their lives, they left homes behind and brought their entire lives with them - complete with businesses, capital and useful trades. They were here for a new life.

Compare with today's more economic temporary style of immigration. Young, single people come over simply to earn more money. They have no interest in developing a life here, since they are not staying - they simply import the culture wholesale as a sort of comfort blanket, and do not integrate, buy local goods, adapt to local customs. They live frugally, and send more of their money back to their established homes and families - which they have not abandoned nor intend to - and when they get bored, they return home. They haven taken from the economy, but not really contributed - there is a net loss.

What you're trying to do is use historical information about the 19th/20th century immigrants, who came here out of neccessity, set up here permanently and brought skills and business and capital into the econonmy, invested their energy into developing a life here and eventually integrated - use this information to justifiy the pick'n'mix 'here for a buck' economic migration which open borders has gven us today.

You can't do that.

Nov 21, 2018 at 8:38 AM | Unregistered CommenterTheBigYinJames

While we await some proper action it is rather pleasant to indulge is a bit of fantasy - ! wish !

here
A Bit of potted background from my friend Wiki for those who have forgotten
On 4 January 1649, the House of Commons passed an ordinance to set up a High Court of Justice, to try Charles I for high treason in the name of the people of England. The House of Lords rejected it, and as it did not receive Royal Assent, Charles asked at the start of his trial on 20 January in Westminster Hall, "I would know by what power I am called hither. I would know by what authority, I mean lawful authority", knowing that there was no legal answer under the constitutional arrangements of the time. He was convicted with fifty-nine Commissioners (judges) signing the death warrant.


Although an exact number hasn't been pinned down, it is estimated that there were about 210 members of the Rump Parliament. This was approximately a fifty-five percent decrease from the 470-member enrollment of the Long Parliament before Pride's Purge. Though nine new members were admitted to the Rump parliament, the vast majority of the Rumpers were transferred from the Long Parliament.
From Wiki
Well...there are certain parallels ...The EU has been 'tried' (in a sense) by the British People ....and we have certain folk in high places of authority who are being accursed of treason ...so you can make of it what you will. But it is a bit of wishful fantasy...isn't it?

Nov 21, 2018 at 7:54 AM | Unregistered CommenterKleinefeldmaus

On immigration it is worth remembering that, in the short term, immigrants are definitely beneficial to the economy. They come here to work. They are young and risk-taking (emigration away from one’s support network is a risk). They are just the sort of entrepreneurial spirits that the UK needs.

And in the long-term? It has been suggested that when they retire, get old, get ill and need scare that they become a cost. That may be true but so what? That is true of people in general, not immigrants.

Corporate pension schemes and National Insurance do not work by people filling in their stamp and then getting their investment back at the end. The payments of today pay for the investments to meet the existing commitments. One of the reasons for the pensions crisis is that the number of employees in each company has declined with automation meaning the amount of people paying in now is less than those in the past who have earnt their pay out.

This is true whether those paying in now were born and educated here or not.

Nov 21, 2018 at 7:35 AM | Registered CommenterM Courtney

Breaking News

Theresa May has given away British defence in the Brexit negotiations

EU Army: This is what UK has signed up to After we voted to Leave EU

The scorn Gov't shows to electorate is contemptible and in this case Treachery

* Example:
12 September 2017, Dept Exiting EU Britain sign up to EU Defence - Ref. result ignored, continue as usual
Foreign policy, defence and development - a future partnership paper - 12 September 2017
https://www.ft.com/content/11653e68-9875-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b

Nov 21, 2018 at 1:24 AM | Registered CommenterPcar

stewgreen , M Courtney

yep... I just thought that a document of such significance might have a more informative set of metadata and that as an agreement between two parties - that both parties would be acknowledged in the authorship fields.

What a shame it isn't one of the old word processing file formats that kept an edit history :-) PDFs have tripped a few folk up in the past.....

Better late than never.... Fact not Friction


and Google are popping links all over their web presence to their take on EU Article 13

Nov 21, 2018 at 12:26 AM | Registered Commentertomo

@Tomo type his name into Twitter
similar tweet
https://twitter.com/squeezyjohn/status/1064871015979933697

"he couldn't have written it in that time."
Doh he took it from a different file copy and pasted it , played around and finalised it
..that's possible in the 3 hours

Nov 21, 2018 at 12:04 AM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Jonathan Uphoff seems to be the guy who did the last reformat on the English version of the agreement.
According to the evidence of this Tweet he couldn't have written it in that time.

Why ask a Eurocrat to do the last reformat?
Well, perhaps it speaks well of the British Civil Service that they weren't allowed to read it before May backed it.

Or maybe there is no difference between EU and UK bureaucrats.

Nov 20, 2018 at 11:56 PM | Registered CommenterM Courtney

@Harry Passfield weird insurance questions

In market research we ask certain weird questions
cos there are some strange remarkable correlations
that provide very good predictions, that you would not have guessed.

you called them ?
ie they are not burglars getting info ?

When I search Twitter : "weird questions" insurance renewal
some people say they do get weird questions, but not about roof

Nov 20, 2018 at 11:50 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

One curious but imho telling observation - the draft withdrawal document internal data seems to show the author / creator as one Jonathan Uphoff

Linkedin says he is a "Lawyer-Linguist at the General Secretariat of the Council of the European Union in Brussels".

I'd have thought that some attention to detail might have had some functionary change that attribution to "EU Brussels & HMG London" or somesuch.

It's a detail but a niggling one for this peon pedant.

Nov 20, 2018 at 11:35 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Pcar, absolutely.

Care for the elderly is also suffering from countless new rules that don't actually serve the elderly well. A million boxes to tick and not one of them 'care for them'.

Nov 20, 2018 at 11:01 PM | Unregistered CommenterTinyCO2

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