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Discussion > First steps towards a sucessful Brexit

EM - sorry, but it is you who is showing the secondary schoolmaster's contempt for the uneducated 'working man' with your implication that, because of his background, he will easily be taken in and mislead by ridiculous things he has heard.

You still haven't said what you advised "Jeremy" when, prior to the referendum, he told you that a 'leave' vote would mean all foreign workers being chucked out. Is it a secret? Why not tell us what you advised him?

Nor have you said which new housing estate or large public or commercial buildings developments that he was signed up to work on three months from now, presumably not far from completion, had been abandoned in the last two weeks? A very short time scale to abandon even a small project, let alone large ones. Is that a secret too?

Jul 8, 2016 at 7:25 PM | Registered CommenterMartin A

Is this how the next war will start?

Jul 8, 2016 at 7:27 PM | Unregistered CommenterMartyn

AK, you are stretching the facts to make a point too. Do you have any evidence of a repatriation statement? Not the absence of a denial, but a declaration of intent? No? Then you are making it up. No doubt the lack of a denial that leave would paint all busses blue means that was on the cards too. Logically bereft. Please return to proper arguments. No more straw men.

Jul 8, 2016 at 8:49 PM | Unregistered Commenterrhoda

Martyn. If the electorate was never made aware of Leave's intentions before the referendum, what mandate can they now claim?
Jul 8, 2016 at 7:25 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

Ak - it was a referendum, not an election.

Jul 8, 2016 at 9:44 PM | Registered CommenterMartin A

rhoda. I don't believe you were in a position to evaluate the media coverage I mentioned. There was also much discussion of the ideas of many who believed a vote for Brexit would solve existing problems caused by existing immigrants. Thus there is no way that Leave leaders could not have known that a proportion of their support base expected Brexit to solve existing problems, problems they knew they would not be tackling. It was therefore incumbent on the Leave side to make this clear. They didn't.

Jul 8, 2016 at 9:59 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

Martin A. Exactly, so where is the mandate to do anything other than to ultimately leave the E U? No mandate to do anything specific to achieve this end. That is why many are calling for an early general election to gain that mandate.

Jul 8, 2016 at 10:03 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

Alan Kendall: what do you mean "ultimately"? They promised the referendum at the recent election. The answer has come back "leave". That is mandate enough to trigger Article 50. The manner of leaving is something the representatives were elected to decide.
Entropic Man: Jeremy the plumber shouldn't feel too upset. If he wanted rid of his Polish competitors, his only hope of success was with the leavers..

Jul 9, 2016 at 12:54 AM | Unregistered CommenterRobert Swan

Any news from all those made unemployed by having their jobs and entire industries made uneconomic by EU policies, that successive UK Governments have done nothing to oppose?

Will Labour and Conservative Parties promise to get those jobs back if there is an election, given that the EU made no offer to Cameron before the Referendum?

Jul 9, 2016 at 1:14 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Jul 8, 2016 at 6:04 PM | Entropic man
"Labour proposed a motion confirming that EU residents here be allowed to stay. It passed 245-2 because 325 Conservative MPs did not attend. Theresa May specifically refused to rule out deporting EU citizens".

Reassuring EU residents that they will be allowed to stay in the UK before Brexit negotiations has started although perhaps virtuous would be the same as putting our cards on the table before the game had began. For that reason I believe the Conservative MPs were correct in not attending to vote and Theresa May was correct at in refusing to rule out deporting EU citizens.

Jul 9, 2016 at 3:29 AM | Unregistered CommenterMartyn

Robert Swan.
The referendum question was overly simple. It asked whether the UK should remain part of the EU or should leave it. It did not address questions like how or when. So the referendum confers no mandate on these matters; only that at some time in the future and in some manner the government of the time must effect a leaving strategy. Since no major political party spelt out in its manifesto how or when the UK should leave in the event that a referendum voted to leave, there is no mandate. The fact that an overwhelming number of MPs in the present parliament supported Remain and the Parties' manifestos (manifesti?) ignored the possibility of a Leave vote provides two additional legitimacy problems. That is why referendums in a parliamentary democracy are not a good idea.

Possibly the only way out of the whole mess is to have another election where the most important question should be how Brexit should be achieved. But will any Party agree to this and what happens to candidates who retain their Remain convictions? The whole thing is an unmitigated ballsup, brought to us by still battling sects of the Tory Party. Thanks a bunch!

Jul 9, 2016 at 8:19 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

Alan Kendall, the whole thing is an unmitigated ballsup, brought on by ALL political parties giving away progressively more and more, and never asking for anyone's permission.

At what point in time would it have been better to stop and ask the UK electorate for their opinion? 5 years ago? 15 years ago? Or wait until we had an armed European riot police force dealing with protestors on British streets?

The Labour and Conservative Partys are already having to deal with the consequences, of having p!ssed off more than 50% of the population, over one simple question, which neither party wanted to ask, and it was disaffected Labour voters who swung the vote.

Why should the UK population have to waste more time and money trying to prop up a failing institution, only to have other countries reject it despite more British taxpayers money? The EU has a track record of ripping off British taxpayers, so why should it change now?

Jul 9, 2016 at 10:22 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie


You might find this useful

Jul 9, 2016 at 10:25 AM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

MartinA, SandyS

You and any other French expats may also find this useful. Connexionfrance covers a lot of the ground we discussed here, and a lot more we missed.

Jul 9, 2016 at 11:01 AM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

I'm afraid I have to agree with what Entropic man has been saying in general terms at least. Currently no one can say for sure what will happen about EU citizens in the UK or UK citizens in the EU. No one knows. This ranges from no change, through making life awkward to making life impossible to actually denying work permits and residency. When it gets down to it this parliament can pass all the motions it likes it will be the next one that really decides the fate of EU citizens in the UK. The next election will be within 12 months of the decree nisi.

Listen to Russel Kane at 10:50 to get the view of an Essex Boy's family and friends. Which confirms to a certain degree what Entropic man says about that. I can add that my son's work in car repair and manufacturing related jobs and many of the "blue collar" workers hold the same views as Russell Kane's family and friends and many were expecting the exodus to have started by now. Politicians like Bojo saying that the immigrants currently in the UK will stay and that there will be more isn't what they voted for. Michael Hesseltine got it right, we know what people voted for, but we don't know what they voted against. For many taking back control was purely about controlling (stopping) immigration, the fact that it won't be easy may be an unpleasant shock for them.

I have a minor fear that the UK will swap 750,000 Irish Eu citizens for 750,000 Ulster Protestants a few years down the line.

Jul 9, 2016 at 11:21 AM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

Entropic man
Thanks for the link, my wife is a visitor to several ex-pat sites and I think she's bookmarked that article already.

The S1 healthcare issue is a major concern as you get older, and medical care you can't afford would be one reason to cut your losses and return to the UK. If you're going to be poor then you might as well get free medical care you spent over forty years paying for, even if you end up in a one bedroom apartment in Derby!

Jul 9, 2016 at 11:29 AM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

golfCharlie. Of all the major political.parties only the Torys had a referendum on their manifesto. In recent years only the Torys have a major split on Europe, only the Torys were worried about UKIPs influence (although the other lot should have been). So no, it was primarily a Tory ballsup.

You keep berating the EU, but we as a country have decided that question. We need to move on to determine just how Brexit can be best achieved. This involves questions of legitimacy and whether parliament, which differs markedly from the majority public position, has a mandate. This was what I was discussing. There are two main questions 1) do we need an election? and if we do 2) should candidates who disagree with Brexit stand? If you answer yes to question 2, what happens if a dominently Remain parliament is re-elected? The ballsup gets worse and worse the more you examine it.

Jul 9, 2016 at 11:52 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

SandyS, Golf Charlie, Alan Kendall

Uncertainty is not our friend where Brexit is concerned. There is an emerging mismatch between what people thought they were voting for (or against) and what they they are likely to get.

I know this is an unfashionable position, but it is clear in retrospect tha the referendum has not been the clear mandate for Brexit that the Leavers portray. Perhaps a general election to confirm the voters' position would be a good idea.

Churchill called democracy "the worst form of government, apart from all the others". The last year has demonstrated some of democracy's worst aspects.

I have a minor fear that the UK will swap 750,000 Irish Eu citizens for 750,000 Ulster Protestants a few years down the line.

Or 3.3 million EU citizens in the UK for 1.3 million British expats. :-(

If Northern Ireland does join a united Ireland I have an interesting problem.

Whoever said "My country, right or wrong." was a fool. So far I have given the UK the benefit of the doubt. Now I see it drifting into racism and isolationism in a way which deeply disturbs me.

My wife has joint Irish/UK citizenship, so I am eligible for Irish citizenship. If you had asked me ten years ago I would have chosen England over Ireland with no doubt. Now I am not so sure.

Jul 9, 2016 at 12:21 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

Alan Kendall, golf Charlie

The referendum was advisory. As it becomes clearer that the consequences of accepting that advice are not what the voters thought, the referendum becomes less and less valid as a decision.

Considering the importance and irreversible nature of invoking Article 50 I, for one, would like something which better reflects the political and economic reality.

Jul 9, 2016 at 1:16 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

Our decision on what to do with EU citizens who arrived legally and wish to remain is nothing at all to do with British citizens who live in EU countries. We decide what is the right way to treat the EU citizens based on our own judgement of fairness and right/wrong. If other EU countries do not treat UK citizens in the same way then our argument is with those countries and not with EU citizens who have moved here in good faith

Jul 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM | Registered CommenterDung


There is nothing wrong with having a referendum on important long standing issues, the problems arise from the untrustworthyness of some of the politicians who might be implementing it, people like Hammond and May. Any attempt to stay in the single market will be a betrayal.

Jul 9, 2016 at 2:42 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Alan Kendall, the Labour Party has not discussed the EU because they presumed all of their party faithful would agree with their vision. The party faithful did not agree with the vision, and Corbyn's lack of committment to the vision has caused further splits within Labour. I was trying to avoid making specific Left v Right political comments, but the Socialist dream of a Socialist EU living in Socialist harmony has really annoyed the traditional Labour voters in the the UK.

The EU is too big to fail. Wrong. It has failed the UK and is failing Europeans. Left and Right have become so obsessed with ensuring the EU's survival.

Do we need an election? To decide what? The next Prime Minister of the UK WILL be a woman, whether that woman is a Remainer or Brexit supporter is not certain. If a snap election was called, the Labour Party would PROBABLY be beaten badly, by its own internal divisions. As it is 2:30 saturday, Eagle has said she will oppose Corbyn on Monday. How long before her constituency Momentum activists threaten to deselect her as an MP?

Meanwhile at EM 12:21, EM is confirming that he and Mrs EM may be regretting the choice of Nationality they previously made. Do all EU supporters act out of selfisf interest, based on information available at the time? It seems that is why so many Immigrants came to the UK, and annoyed so many people. Rather than label Brexit as racists, should Remainers be labelled as Selfish individuals, wanting everyone else to pay for their political dreams?

More than 50% of the population have decided their selfish interest outweighs the selfish interests of the minority who still offer no apology for all the damage their selfish interests have caused.

Until we KNOW who the new Prime Minister is, what the Cabinet looks like, and what the policies are towards the Brexit procedure, we don't know how the EU is going to react. All EUrophiles should leave if they think their future is better off in the EU. If property prices fall as a result, the younger generation will appreciate it, and it will ease the current shortage of property.

Jul 9, 2016 at 2:53 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Hammond and May are nothing without Clarkson.

Jul 9, 2016 at 3:00 PM | Unregistered Commenterrhoda

EM 1:16 Your post crossed with mine above.

As it becomes clear how many divisions there are across all parties, and across all social demographics, and how selfish interests play such a part of the Remainers arguments, shouldn't we give it a few General Elections before rushing into a panic about returning to the EU?

The EU may not exist by then anyway. If the Unprecedented anti-EU feelings, keep growing across the EU, at the current rates, and if the EU has not taken any urgent action to address this crisis of their own making, all of Europe will be in agreement what a waste of time and money it all was.

Is there any news from the EU about what they are now regretting?

Jul 9, 2016 at 3:14 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Tell me what you think the referendum result empowers the present parliament to do?

How should this parliament, one full of politicians who didn't believe we should leave, accomplish this?

Remain leaning MPs who follow their consciences and the mandate given to them when they were elected will be criticised for not fulfilling the will of the majority at the referendum, whereas if they follow this majority they disregard their own inclinations which their own constituents voted them in to follow.gave them. A totally invidious position to be in, and one illustrating the point that referendums and parliamentary democracy do not mix well.

Jul 9, 2016 at 3:16 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall


The electorate who voted in all our MPs is included in the electorate who voted for Brexit, happy now?

Jul 9, 2016 at 4:43 PM | Registered CommenterDung