http://www.flightradar24.com/37.67,-121.13/8#/ANZ1/2d80a68?&_suid=139423641511109523734186213202

Actually you could even use this tool if you really wanted to check on something. Here you can find a commercial aircraft carrier that flies an international, or national if you live in a larger country, find out when it is coming over your hours. Get a pair of binoculars and see for yourself if this plane is leaving any contrails or not. If it isn't and there are a whole lot of other trails in the sky then that could be used to infer an opinion. It's not something I have done, but I already believe what I believe. Unfortunately I live in a place that don't appear to have many transnational flights directly overhead. Of course that in itself is indicative if you live in such a place yourself but still suffer long plumes of clouds - chemtrails.

Now we know the depth of your knowledge! “Pretty much the only product will be water.” There will also be a lot of CO2; hydrocarbon – there is a clue in the name; hydro(gen) - carbon. Burning it results in reactions with oxygen, hence H2O and CO2. This is why jet engines are one of the biggest sources of CO2 that we have. Also, you would be surprised how little water it takes to make a large cloud. That the contrails last for days is highly questionable; most will dissipate as you watch, though all at different rates. Quite a number of passenger jets fly and turn corners; some do circle – have you not heard of holding patterns?

While the existence of chemtrails might be a real threat (or not), you are not presenting much evidence to support you hypothesis.

"No that's not right. Very roughly half of the combustion product will be CO2"

You're right of course. And we can add a lot of other gases too.

The largest part of most combustion gas is nitrogen (N2), water vapor (H2O) (except with pure-carbon fuels), and carbon dioxide (CO2) (except for fuels without carbon); these are not toxic or noxious (although carbon dioxide is generally recognized as a greenhouse gas that contributes to global warming). A relatively small part of combustion gas is undesirable noxious or toxic substances, such as carbon monoxide (CO) from incomplete combustion, hydrocarbons (properly indicated as CxHy, but typically shown simply as "HC" on emissions-test slips) from unburnt fuel, nitrogen oxides (NOx) from excessive combustion temperatures, ozone (O3), and particulate matter (mostly soot).

But it doesn't change anything. Contrails are called vapour trails for a reason. And that reason isn't because they contain a lot of other gases. None of those gases form vapour trails.

"Also, you would be surprised how little water it takes to make a large cloud."

I'm afraid a better statement to make would be to say - You would be surprised at how much water is in a large cloud. Enormous amount.ANDYou would be surprised at how much water there is in clear air. Water is the largest greenhouse gas. Take an area equal to the area you see formed in a long plume several hundred meters in diameter and given the relative humidity calculate the amount of water in that volume of air. My bet is that volume of air already holds many, many times the volume of water you calculate as resulting from exhaust. In fact, the water from a jet engine exhaust is minimal compared to existing water. We're comparing volume now. Not relative humidity. The relative humidity is just for the purpose of calculation.

Why would that explain something? Is it now considered a subject we're not allowed to talk about. Did we get moved to China in the night in this parallel universe? Does the subject matter infringe on your sensibilities?

Entropic mentioned ice roads and permafrost as worries. So no value added.

http://www.naturalgasintel.com/articles/97014-ice-road-energy-truckers-getting-permafrost-parkway-to-beaufort-beaches

replicant

Thanks for the entertainment; I hav'nt laughed so much since Granny caught here tit in the mangle !

EM & Chandra

Respect.

EM, If I have one comment to make: When I respond to your arguments by pointing to articles, papers you never respond. I think others have noticed that you cut of debate when faced with contra evidence. Can you comment on the corelation between global temperature and Solar Cycles. Also would you like to comment on the effects of ocean cycles on global climate ?

@Martin A

Not vapour trails Martin, but contrails (condensation trails). Vapour trails would be invisible.

Martin

Without wanting to pry replicant (or even *with* wanting to pry, I'm just curious)

NorthWest Coast.

Ross Lea

Thanks for the entertainment; I hav'nt laughed so much since Granny caught here tit in the mangle !

It may be funny to you but to me it is sad. Very sad indeed.

Martin

When replicant said they don't exist, he means they really don't exist - not that we are using an incorrect name.

Geezes. Of course vapour trails exist. Contrails exist. Geezes. Unbelievable.

What I was pointing out is that 6 gallons/mile can explain normal vapour trails that, in some circumstances (high relative humidity) hang around almost indefinitely. Low humidity - they can evaporate in seconds as you say.

Of course it explains normal vapour trails. But what we are witnessing almost daily are not normal vapour trails. And no, they cannot hang around almost indefinitely. We are talking about atmospheric conditions at the altitude where commercial jets fly. Not some imaginary invented condition that could achieve a particular situation. There are no conditions, either natural or artificial, that would allow 6 gallons of water to create the aircraft trails being created today.

Mar 7, 2014 at 4:48 PM | Unregistered Commenterreplicant

Low humidity - they can evaporate in seconds as you say.

Low humidity - they can DO evaporate in seconds.

NorthWest Coast. Pleasant area. I used to drive up to Corvallis now and then. That's as far North as I ever got.

Canada

We are talking about atmospheric conditions at the altitude where commercial jets fly. ie: Low humidity.

You said

I do not believe you ever are looking vapour trails. Modern commercial aircraft jet engines preclude their formation. 4 at 4:53 PM replicant

I think I took that to mean that vapour trails contrails don't exist (these days). I'll try to be more attentive.

No need to apologize. I am certain that it is my fault simply because for me I find it totally impossible that people share this opinion. Unfortunately I have to come to the realization that this is so. Yesterday a young man from Greenpeace came by seeking donations. I asked him if he knew what chemtrails were. He said he didn't I was flabbergasted. Never heard of them. I told him I wouldn't give $.02 to an organization that can't look up. I asked him what the hell do you people talk about.

The week before I read an article by David Suzuki (the darling of Canada green movement) that derided chemtrails and said he wouldn't pursue topics that have no scientific basis as he was a scientist. Unbelievable. I know you might think that this is supposed to prove something. But for me, just because I might be in a church where everyone is in the choir, doesn't change my beliefs. But that fact doesn't alter my thinking that they are all delusional. Why would it?

@Martin A Mar 8, 2014 at 1:14 PM

Sorry, my mistake. Jumped forward without updating myself. simon