Bishop Hill Balcombe open thread
Aug 17, 2013 Energy: shale It will be interesting to see if things turn nasty in Balcombe this weekend, so I'm going to leave this thread up for anyone who has any news to impart. The weather forecast is not good, which may dampen things down somewhat, but the threat of violence from environmentalists has led to Cuadrilla suspending operations already. The thugs and their apologists in Westminster and the left-wing press have already won a major victory.
The battle over shale gas extraction feels like David Cameron's miner's strike - the threats of violence are the same, the longing to put the UK's lights out is the same, the stakes are just as high.
I'm really not sure that Cameron is up to this though.
Bishop Hill
Apparently the Times is reporting that the British Geological Survey is going to report that there are very large quantities of shale oil underneath the Weald. Paywalled story here.
Reader Comments (147)
The police have refused to arrest any of the eco-terrorists, and proclaim they cannot contain them.
There should be a call for the relevant chief of police to be sacked without pension.
... and this is the outfit providing their "legal support" .
Wonder who pays for that?
Love their clenched mailed fist logo - very cuddly.
"Apparently the Times is reporting that the British Geological Survey is going to report that there are very large quantities of shale oil underneath the Weald."
Excelent news. Let's get at the fracking stuff!
When will my TV show shots of the 1000 extra activists? Where are they?
Or are most of them wearing helmets and high visibility jackets?
Never have so many been so misrepresented by so few.
The thing about geological age deposits is that they are not going anywhere.
If someone says we don’t need it they need a good argument. What do they have instead?
I think Obama will probably decide to cancel the Keystone pipeline not because it is a proven innate bad idea but because he has been enabled by his domestic shale gas development to offset any downside from that decision. In the short term he is enabled to decide to trade away one power base to garner support from what he thinks - for now - is another power base.
Same with coal, Obama can act “tough” on closure there too. Only because he has shale pumping through his economy to prop up these postures.
I don’t think we will see Obama say that so starkly.
I think this posture lesson has not been lost on other politicians around the world walking the tightrope of energy and climate policy.
I suggest people should think “Big picture” like Obama does. Don’t allow your noses to get put out of joint by the hippie’s placards, see past that to the inevitable long game.
I think the fact Cameron is walking a balancing line in the far different environment of the UK, where the cosy tightness of both privileged niche advocacy and geography can distort media and political perceptions of development, makes his decisions far more nuanced and interesting to see.
To my mind the contrast between shale and wind has to be the battle ground. Once you lay out the geographical and obvious perceptive points then all is left is the more subtle reasoning why there is a difference. The RSPB stance will probably go down in history as the weirdest distorted stance since the Association of German National Jews
This perversion of ideological reasoning needs to be pointed out before getting bogged down in carnivals like Balcombe.
It’s been there millions of years; a few months/years thinking can’t do any harm ;)
Following is an extract from “Church of England speaks up for fracking trials”, Financial Times, August 17th.
NW
The problem that the local police had in 1984 was exactly what you would expect and exactly what Scargill had bargained for. The strike would have been perfectly legal if Scargill had called a ballot and got his 55% majority. He didn't because he knew he wouldn't.
Nevertheless in places like South Yorkshire, Durham and Midlothian, which always tended to be more militant, a majority locally almost certainly were in favour of the strike.
So are you going to go face-to-face with your next-door neighbour with whom you probably agree and with whom you and your family are going to have to live after all this was over?
Most miners understood the bind the local bobbies were in and the local superintendents tried to assign duties that would avoid rancour (most of them anyway). The result was that if the strike was to be beaten (and it had to be beaten just as this collection of 'my way or no way' lawbreakers has to be beaten here or somewhere) outsiders were going to be needed.
(Not that locals didn't have a way of dealing. At one confrontation at Bilston Glen one of the visiting loudmouths decided to lead a charge against a police line. The line broke, let him through and re-formed behind him. I quote: "I've never seen anyone so frightened in my life. After he'd pissed his pants and we'd had a good laugh we booted him back to his mates. Never saw him again."
There's more than one way to skin a cat!)
What is going on at Balcombe is NOT peaceful protest.
If this Government had any balls it would instruct the local Police to arrest the ringleaders for public disorder, obstruction, trespass, breach of the peace and any other charge possible under current statute.
A few months in clink, worrying about an illegal fracking by their cellmates would concentrate their minds.
Complaint sent to Sussex Police (below). I encourage all BH readers to do similar.
Dear Sir/Madam- I am looking with increasing amazement at the Sussex Police Force's lack of action in the face of mass criminal action by the "protesters" at Balcombe.
Just what do these self-appointed "spokepersons" for the local community have to do to get arrested for obstruction, or trespass?
Please note this open letter from Alison Stevenson, Chairman of the Balcombe Parish Council.
"Over next weekend, from 16th to 21st August, the No Dash for Gas protest group is planning to hold their Reclaim the Power action camp somewhere in Balcombe. As yet the location for the camp has not been disclosed and remains a mystery.
There have been reports in the media and on the group’s website that they will be here in response to a call from Balcombe to protect our interests. I have yet to establish who, if anybody, issued this invitation. It most certainly was not the Parish Council, and the local anti-fracking group, NoFibs, has confirmed it was not them.
For perhaps too long I have been sitting on the fence balancing the opinions in our village and tolerating extreme views, but the time has come to speak up.
Whilst villagers have voted that we oppose any future fracking and whilst having respect for those who wish to protest peacefully, there are three issues that arise from the intentions of the No Dash for Gas group.
◾Firstly will the camp itself be a trespass?
◾Secondly, and making the first pale into insignificance by comparison, is the promise of direct action on Monday 19th August to stop the drilling by acts of civil disobedience. It is likely that this will include an attempt to enter the site and physically stop the operations, an action that could result in injury to people on either side of the fence and /or to the police.
At a public meeting held last Friday evening the group sought to justify such actions on the grounds that the company that is drilling is acting illegally and that in consequence illegal actions to stop it are justified. This is quite simply not the case. Like it or not, the drilling operation is entirely legal. All the necessary permissions and permits have been sought and are in place.
◾Thirdly the group seeks to legitimize such actions by saying that whatever is done is in response to Balcombe residents’ call for help. This is just not true.
So here it is. Balcombe strongly opposes any actions which may be taken which involve civil trespass and/or illegal acts. And I further state this, if the No Dash for Gas group is coming here in the full knowledge that it intends to break the law then it should stay away. It is not wanted in Balcombe! It is duly uninvited.
Alison Stevenson
Chairman
Why is it that the police will not enforce the law and ensure that law-abiding people, whether it's Cuadrilla or the residents of Balcombe or anywhere else, be allowed to go about their normal business unhindered by protesters?
Mike Jackson talks commons sense right the way through this thread.
The Bish said:
A number of people have commented on Cameron and also compared this to the miner's strike. The difference was Thatcher and now the difference between Thatcher and Cameron shows through.
I could spend a lot of time agreeing with people about Thatcher's faults but she had some qualities that Cameron does not even seem to be aware of.
Thatcher believed in certain things and she was willing to face down those who criticised her for those beliefs.
Thatcher was loyal to her beliefs (so you knew what you were going to get), she was (as they say) a conviction politician.
Thatcher always worked for the best for the UK.
Thatcher showed good judgement (most of the time and particularly in the early part of her time as PM).
Cameron does not believe in anything (he is not even a real Conservative), he really wants to be seen to believe strongly in things but he needs others to tell him what those things should be. Dependant upon others for his beliefs, he first shows poor judgement in choosing which causes to run with and then has no loyalty to those causes when a better one appears.
Cameron is between a rock and a hard place, between the Conservative party and the LIberal Democrats. However the extent to which he espouses Lib Dem causes should result in more people wondering just what he believes or better still to realise that he has no beliefs.
We are not hearing much from Cameron about Balcombe because he has not yet been briefed on what he should believe ^.^
Mike Jackson, I think they call it "policing by consent". Rather than deal with the lawbreaker, they prefer to broker a compromise between the involved parties. This is to some extent forced on them by the rest of the justice system which refuses to issue appropriate sentences with real deterrent effect. The police are at pains in these situations to explain to the aggrieved party that they cannot protect them from the criminal's retribution against them if they are arrested as release will be if not immediate then within a very short time.
It's worth noting that the main reason for the "direct action" is that they are not allowed to do the same to the politicians whose responsibility it actually is.
When thousands marched on the SECC in Glasgow to protest the Iraq war the police were duly deployed to make sure that Blair and his cronies within were not inconvenienced in any way.
Aug 17, 2013 at 11:36 AM | Unregistered CommenterRog Tallbloke
===================================================
In one of Ms. Bennett's first interviews after being appointed, she claimed that the "green economy" now constituted 11% of GDP. Being an inquisitive sort of person, I wrote to the Green Party asking for references and sources for this statement.
I'm still waiting for a reply.
As Nick Grealy pointed out over two weeks ago at NoHotAir, Cuadrilla are exploring for oil, not gas in Balcombe.
Fascinating that the "No Dash for Gas" spokesperson quoted on the BBC website item turns out to be regular Guardian all-purpose lefty hackette Ewa Jasiewicz - who, when she isn't stuck up a chimney or chained to something, pontificates there on Gaza, Israel, Primark, Iraq and all the other causes dear to the Islingtonian heart.
Usual Guardian - BBC activist circle jerk.
@Athelstan - Aug 17, 2013 at 1:45 PM
a large marquee has been erected and inside a PA system with stage installed, along with various other 'amenities'
That's nice for them... In the village where I live we have a music festival that has something similar - in a good year we get 400 to 500 visitors. However, it takes about four months for all the paperwork, site inspections (despite being in the same place for 20+ years), permitting, etc to be done, plus all the costs involved (not insubstantial and including paying for policing) and is subject to final permission from Elfin Safety, the Rozzers, Hygene Dept etc etc., and threats of prosecution if we step out of line anywhere.
I think that I'll suggest to the organising committee that next year we just declare it to be a "protest camp", cut out all the paperwork and get the police for free.
Dung
Whether you love or hate Margaret Thatcher you have to agree with all you've said.
The problem here is that Cameron is a wimp and he has to work with Clegg who is a useful idiot.
Sorry, SandyS, have to disagree, there: Clegg is a useless idiot.
And Maggie was so obviously way ahead of her time, closing down so many manual fracking sites. Funny how the protests swing, isn’t it?
'protesting against something that isn't even going on at the site seems a bit bonkers...'
At least the placards are already printed.
http://newstechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/down-with-this-sort-of-thing.jpg
May even be enough to get half the BBC's finest back from a Tahrir Square balcony deploying the other expertises in what might happen that they enjoy.
Gentlemen. There's no point your blowing off steam here . If you really want shale gas you should be out there writing to the papers and your MP, appearing on local TV, mounting counter-demonstrations etc. You should be presenting the pro-shale gas case at every opportunity, over media with large audiences.
Sitting at your computers commenting on Bishop Hill, you are preaching to the choir, effectively invisible and will have no effect on the public debate.
I'm no fan of UK shale gas, because I regard it as uneconomic. I do share your unhappiness with illegal protest and civil disobedience. Such matters should be settled by evidence-based discussion at planning inquiries and, if necessary, through the courts. This grandstanding is no way to achieve rational decision making.
Mr. Man - Fair points all. And maybe even some or all true. You believe them to be; others may not. But given many of the routes you advocate may not always be possible, advocating a 'nothing if not all' approach to sharing opinion or stirring debate appears to ignore the often effective use of the pen still. Thanks to this thread I am already better informed, and that knowledge does have a power.
One law for them, and too much law for the rest of us. Certainly - yep call your concert a fracking protest camp and hey presto the taxpayer will send the fuzzies for free.
Dung,
I disagreed with some of Maggie's [Thatcher] policies, however she engendered an enormous respect for her indomitable fortitude and resoluteness which I greatly admired from afar, in her heart and in her mind only Britain counted. However, unfortunately the FCO and her own cabinet and civil servants conspired against her and under enormous pressure [something she bitterly regretted in later life] she did sign up to the single European act [and two years previously allowed Spain to join the EEC/EU].
Presently, can you think that for one moment Spanish PM Snr. Rajoy would be trying it on with Mrs. Thatcher, by playing 'cold war games' with a British protectorate? Senor Rajoy, he takes the piss - because Dave, his cabinet, and Mr. Vague are all girls blouse pussies - and beholden to Brussels but not to the wishes people here and over in Gibraltar. What lessons, does Cameron think the Argentinians are learning?
The British PM, his government and the administration are a soft touch.
Certainly, in as far as energy policy goes - describing it accordingly as soft headed does in no way do justice describing the catastrophic chaos of UK energy policy [if you could call it that] and of crucial but impossible insoluble paradox concerning, the green agenda balancing the far more important: British energy security.
Dave is thick, he doesn't get it at all, evidently he doesn't do joined up thinking, I often wonder - all those educational qualifications - did his dad buy them all off? Intellectually, Thatcher would have wiped the floor with David Cameron.
@Aug 17, 2013 at 6:15 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic Man
When you say "your" there could you do us (maybe just me) a favour and list your fellows on this thread who you saw sympathised with your sentiment at being unhappy at seeing civil disobedience?
NW
I was in two minds whether to refer to 'policing by consent' in my earlier reply to you but chose to go a different route.
Yes, policing by consent is the basis on which the British civilian police force was founded but it is with the consent of the law-abiding. It is not supposed to be with the consent of the law breakers and where the law-abiding have clearly expressed their view as the Balcombe Parish Council has (and it should be considered the spokesperson for Balcombe, given that it is — in theory at least — democratically elected) then it the police need to take cognisance of that.
I understand the other point you make but it's a red herring. If the police refuse to act because the perpetrator might then take it out on his victim a second time then we may as well resign ourselves to anarchy now and have done with it.
The Leopard in the Basement.
I withdraw my suggestion that those here are in favour of the rule of law. I hadn't realised that the majority of commenters here, and yourself in particular, were in favour of illegal protest and civil disobedience.
Entropic Man
Since chatting here on BH is such a waste of time, may I ask what you are doing here?
EM: "Such matters should be settled by evidence-based discussion at planning inquiries"
The Balcombe well was. It is a completely normal, exploratory well for oil. It is following on from the perfectly normal oil discovery well Balcombe-1 drilled by Conoco in 1986. It is like the approximately 1,000 onshore wells drilled in the same manner since 1980. It has all the usual and necessary HSE and environmental checks and approvals from DECC etc, just like the preceding 1,000 or so wells drilled onshore since 1980.
The council reviewed the application and sought sensible, routine and mundane assurances about noise levels, lighting at night and so forth, issues which could clearly be of concern to residents just like they would be for any industrial process. It is probably less intrusive than agricultural traffic at harvest time.
The well currently drilling in Balcombe has no approval for hydraulic stimulation. A separate permission would be required from DECC.
But none of this appears to matter to the protesters. who seem to be spectacularly misinformed. The drilling operation has been suspended. I don't know what current onshore UK rig rates are, but it is likely costing Cuadrilla $50,000 - $100,000 USD per day in standby costs while protesters against fracking (which isn't even going on at Balcombe) prevent Cuadrilla going about its lawful business.
ThinkingScientist
One assumes then that they all stand a chance of becoming MPs after the next election!
The following document gives an idea of the surveys/assessments for Cuadrilla in Lancashire. Look carefully at the photographs - note the pylons, car, etc. There is no evidence that the works have a significant impact on birds, despite the 'cautious' wording of the report.
http://planningregister.lancashire.gov.uk/Attachments/6193/Annas_Rd_MS_10-2-13_final_comp.pdf
Aug 17, 2013 at 7:02 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic Man
Eh? You haven't directed one question to me or elicited one bit of information from myself “in particular” on anything. Could you please stop being troll-like and answer my question about who were the commenters you volunteered you noticed here who shared a sentiment with you?
Well, I have to say, Leopard, that EM did support my view that the majority of British citizens were against the sort of behaviour we are seeing at Balcombe regardless of their views in fracking. He said
So I don't know what you're fighting about.Are you perhaps suggesting that "civil disobedience" is to some extent to be separated from "illegal protest"?
If so, that's a fine line you're walking, my friend.
Aug 17, 2013 at 8:03 PM | Registered CommenterMike Jackson
I think I walk a broad path. Civil disobedience is something that needs to be understood as and when it happens, not disagreed with as a point of innate principle as EM says he feels, and then says he saw here.
I guess maybe he has you to add to his list of fellow innate haters of civil disobedience?
I would rather hear EM say this because myself I don't think we are all drones here to be painted with the same brush casually like this and left to be uncommented on.
Can't wait to see what the police do when Balcombe village turns into a Greenham Common Camp site.
Oops perhaps it already has.
Entropic Man:
You appear to criticise contributors here and exhort them to action including: "...mounting counter-demonstrations etc." and then go on to say "This grandstanding is no way to achieve rational decision making."
This appears to be a contradiction. Should we mount counter-demonstrations would you then label that as "grandstanding"?.
RR
I was thinking of Useful Idiot in the Karl Marx fashion.
It always amuses me that people comment here that contributors should contact MPs/MEPs/MSP newspapers and so on when, if they actually read through Unthreaded and comments on some of the main articles, they'd know that a fair number do this on a regular basis. Obviously too lazy to read the complete thread or double check.
SandyS: Absolutely. I complained this afternoon to the BBC that they misrepresented the Balcombe well as a shale gas well in their Radio 2 news report today. I have complained multiple times to the BBC about bias in their climate change coverage. I have previously written to my MP and to the BBC Trust about climate change reporting being biased. I have made presentations countering AGW to local groups on a number of occasions and attended, and pointed out errors, at local meetings organised by Friends of the Earth where they stood up and said the "science is settled". Its interesting (and amusing) how quickly they falter with their story in public when someone challenges them who is well prepared and knowledgeable.
"I withdraw my suggestion that those here are in favour of the rule of
law. "
As as been pointed out on many occasions here we are all individuals. It has been proved under ‘peer review‘ no less that people who generalise like you EM have been shown to be below average intelligence. I'm not saying you are of course.....
"It must be said, who rented the land, who is paying for all of this? Because none of it comes cheap - whose funding those useful field folk, at one and of common purpose." - Athelstan.
No one is paying for the land. Or at least no one was when they first occupied the field that belongs to Sidney Farm owned by Richard Ponsford. The ReclaimThePower/NoDashForGas group illegally trespassed on the land. There are now claims that it has been sorted according to this tweet by FrackFreeSussex.
Rob Burton
Your individuality is part of the problem. Getting you coordinated would be like herding cats, which is why you suck as campaigners.
I'll have you know that my IQ was greater than 80 when last measured. :-)
thinking scientist
All the hype about civil disobedience is grandstanding. A legal protest is a right. As you are now you are invisible and the other side is getting all the publicity. .
Entropic Man: "As you are now you are invisible and the other side is getting all the publicity."
Time will tell whether that publicity is a benefit to them. I strongly suspect that the general public mood towards green causes is, at best, now somewhat complacent and is tending towards hostility. The British public are level headed and do not respond well to minorities telling them what they should be doing. I think the greens and the eco-loons are getting shriller and shriller and there is only so long of crying wolf before the British public start to reject them. Especially if they make up fantastical stories about fracking and if the lights start to go out.
Its only going to take one headline and editorial leader in The Sun to sink them, as it is with AGW. The times they are a changing and they are heading for a big fall.
PS When the AGW nonsense is finally over, it will be the headline in the The Sun that does it:
Its The Sun Wot Did It!
@Aug 17, 2013 at 10:51 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic Man
Wow. 81? But you also risk being measured every time you enter a comment here don't you realize that?
Wow. 81? But you also risk being measured every time you enter a comment here don't you realize that?
Aug 17, 2013 at 11:07 PM | The Leopard In The Basement
Indeed. I measure other people by their comments too. I suspect I have an above average IQ measured by comparison to the Bishop Hill average.
Entropic Man is right.
Yes, I can write that in confidence.
Whinging on this blog is worthless. Protesting has value. But only effective protest.
Going for a Summer camping expedition is cute but infantile and fundamentally unpersuasive.
But writing to your MP, engaging with local planning meetings and, above all, expressing your opinion in your local press...
That will make a difference.
DNFTT
thinkingscientist
Oh dear. I hope you are not seriously proposing the Sun newspaper as the arbiter of UK energy policy. :-)
The miners didn't have Vivienne Westwood on side. She declared on BBC News that the birds have stopped singing. It could just have been due to her extraordinary hair dye colour, of course. As for the happy campers, I saw pictures of stuff that made them look like primary school pupils getting on with their creative studies projects. Infantile.
Aug 17, 2013 at 11:23 PM | Entropic Man
Here you see the entirety of EM's philosophy.
EM has a low estimation of the intelligence of the people at the place where he spends an inordinate amount of his time commenting.
In his mind the lower IQ people he torments here are at the mercy of his 81 elevated level and he feels he can have them against their will at any time.
Since he never engages and never listens to the cries of the people he forces himself upon with his self delusional grandeur I see him now as an intellectual Fred West torturer...
Please, let us go ..... ;)
Camping in British weather is so much nicer in August than in January.