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« A classic retold | Main | DECC does SREX »
Friday
Nov162012

Climate justice meeting

For those natives of Edinburgh who like a good grump, here's something to make you particularly miserable:

Amnesty International Scotland, Christian Aid Scotland, WWF Scotland and The University of Edinburgh invite you to a very special event examining Scotland's role in delivering climate justice, featuring Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond as a keynote speaker

Scotland is positioning itself as playing a key international role in helping to deliver climate justice, with the world's first parliamentary debate on the subject and the launch of the Climate Justice Fund earlier this year.

Taking place during the Doha Climate Change Conference, this event provides an opportunity for Scotland's First Minister to outline how we can take this international role forward; as well as reiterating Scotland's commitment to tackle climate change and the impacts of climate change on the world's most vulnerable communities.

Following the speech there will be a panel discussion featuring the First Minister, Dr Richard Dixon, Director of WWF Scotland; Kathy Galloway, Head of Christian Aid Scotland; and Amnesty International.

The event brings together key individuals and organisations working across the inextricably linked areas of human rights, the environment and international development to inform and debate Scotland's role within climate justice.

Event programme

7:30pm  Arrivals and refreshments

8.00pm Welcome from Siobhan Reardon (Amnesty International Scotland) and Edinburgh University

8:10pm  First Minister Alex Salmond to deliver keynote speech

8:30pm  Dr Richard Dixon and Kathy Galloway response to First Minister Alex Salmond

8:40pm Q&A / Panel Discussion

9:00pm  Event concludes

Refreshments will be served following the event and opportunity for audience to network

I'm sure that will get the toes curling. Book here.

 

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Reader Comments (64)

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/as-oaps-struggle-to-heat-homes-sse-1437059

Nov 16, 2012 at 8:21 AM | Unregistered Commenterconfused

Shocked to see Amnesty International there. It looks like they have forgotten what they were originally set up to do and they are now just promoting the political views of their salaried staff, like the other big charities.

Nov 16, 2012 at 8:22 AM | Unregistered CommenterFormer Amnesty Supporter

It's amazing how philanthropic people can be with somebody elses money.

Nov 16, 2012 at 8:39 AM | Unregistered CommenterTinyCO2

Climate justice? I'd like to see Salmond and these out of touch NGOs in the dock for pursuing energy policies which have directly led to more deaths from hypothermia and malnutrition here in Scotland, e.g. 'Third world' conditions in Tayside linked to 'heating or eating' quandary.

Nov 16, 2012 at 8:40 AM | Registered Commenterlapogus

Delivering Climate Justice? Will that fat jock politico dress up as Judge Dredd?

Nov 16, 2012 at 8:41 AM | Unregistered CommenterAdam Gallon

The bike shed will be full that day.
Aye, right.

Nov 16, 2012 at 8:43 AM | Unregistered CommenterBill Irvine

Aaargh! I used to be a member of the WWF many years ago. I even had one of the first picture credit cards with a Panda on it. (Aaaaaah!) Now they are providing a showcase for that moon-faced puddock Alex Salmond.

Thanks for helping me to start the day with a good jolt of indignation with my morning jolt of caffeine!.

Nov 16, 2012 at 8:49 AM | Unregistered CommenterJack Savage

I love the way that faltering and largely self-defeating attempts to limit small amounts of CO2 production are inflated to a "commitment to tackle climate change". How, exactly, does that work?

In any scenario you care to project, even if Scotland stopped every last molecule of CO2 production today, it would have no measurable impact on the climate.

The side benefit of asphyxiating Salmond is tempting, however...

Nov 16, 2012 at 9:03 AM | Unregistered CommenterJames P

Presumably Alex Salmond will be giving up Scotlands share of the North Sea Oil then. and leaving the oil in the ground....

Thought not. hypocrite

Nov 16, 2012 at 9:14 AM | Unregistered CommenterBarry Woods

I take heart from the fact that nobody at the meeting will have any idea what 'climate justice' is, beyond being a verbal expression of middle-class guilt. It really is the silliest Alice-in-Wonderland phrase.

I mean, I didn't get climate justice yesterday, when the sea was too rough for me to take my powerboat out for a spin -- can Scotland do something for me, please?

Nov 16, 2012 at 9:23 AM | Unregistered CommenterRick Bradford

we've had the financial press in the US pushing for a carbon tax to help reduce the deficit (good try), but the australian prime minister has upped the stakes and, altho she squeezes it in at the very end of her speech, she tells it like joanne nova did on WUWT-TV:

15 Nov: Prime Minister’s Office: Speech to Business Council of Australia Dinner
It’s been observed by some that there are controversial Labor policies reflected in the White Paper – like the NBN, like school improvement, like pricing carbon…
In total around sixty per cent of the world’s GDP is either subject to a carbon price today, or has one legislated or planned for implementation in the two or three years ahead.
International carbon markets will cover billions of consumers this decade. Ask the bankers at your table whether they want Australia to clip that ticket. We’re going to help them get their share…
http://www.pm.gov.au/press-office/speech-business-council-australia-dinner

and that's what it's all about...

Nov 16, 2012 at 9:46 AM | Unregistered Commenterpat

I thought that "climate justice" would mean Scotland getting its fair share of global warming. All those in favour ...

Nov 16, 2012 at 9:55 AM | Unregistered CommenterRoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dari%C3%A9n_scheme

Shades of William Paterson getting ever nearer.
Methinks that Alex needs a history lesson beginning in 1695 and ending in 1707,

Nov 16, 2012 at 10:12 AM | Unregistered Commenterpesadia

'Climate Justice' is a stalking horse for fascism if this article is anything to go by: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/14/judiciary-climate-change?fb=native&fb=native

Headline "It is time for the judiciary to step in and avert climate catastrophe"

Summary at the end: "This leaves the judiciary with the task of stepping in and averting catastrophe. In a democracy, issues certainly stop being only political when they give rise to domestic human rights violations and endangerment. Together with the precautionary principle these infringements may serve as legal grounds for the judiciary to take over from politics, protecting citizens from violations by their own government and summoning government to actively protect citizens' fundamental rights. A fast-paced energy revolution is citizens' by right and judicial intervention will help to restore the democratic order, depoliticising the climate issue and making the influence of special interests and short-term gain in the political process less effective."

Note the popularism. Note the disdain for democracy. Note the appeal for authoritarian intervention. Note the classic spectre of 'the influence of special interests'.

Even the Guardian comment control commissars may have been shocked by this, enough at least to let some critical comments through:

e.g.
(1) from a 'fransw' in 3 separate comments:
"Myth Number 1 - Science informs our politicians that we have only a few years left to avert dangerous climate change.

Science does no such thing, it provides analysis of data that is ever changing as knowledge changes, It is others outside science such as politicians or advocates who give us their opinion."
"Myth Number 2 - public is largely unaware and uninformed about these issues

Wrong, it is precisely because a growing body of people has become aware and become informed about these issues outside of the official channels they have noticed the inconsistencies in pro AGW arguments. This is why it is such a hotly debated topic, had we all been "uninformed" then we would surely have meekly followed the government/UN line."
"Myth Number 3 - all the evidence suggests that our current CO2 emissions pose a direct threat to the human ....

It is precisely because there is a large and growing body of evidence that contradicts the CAGW theory that discussion is so lively. Had all the evidence been pro AGW then any counter argument would easily be suppressed, particularly as the skeptics are so keen on empirical evidence and sanctity of data."

(2) from 'G10balSatori'
"The reason for the inaction is that we now know, unlike the author, that the catastrophic anthropogenic global warming (CAGW) theory was massively exaggerated. I wonder at what point it's going to dawn on these Guardian people that things have changed.
[more follows in this comment]"

(3) from 'KarenSTEMM'
"What alarmist rubbish! 'Restore democracy'? Are you having a larf? This is what you should be looking into http://order-order.com/2012/11/13/the-list-of-names-the-bbc-did-not-want-you-to-see-scientist-exposed-by-climategate-set-bbc-policy/"

(4) from 'raggedbandman':
"Today the term 'Green Taliban' is, for the most part, a reckless insult. If this author gets their way, or anything like it, 'Green Taliban' will be the vernacular for reality. Pure Fascism. The backlash against our environmental issues will be fast and furious, the populace of the world's democracies will not tolerate it for a second.

(5) from 'Smith1867':
"What a deeply disturbing article and following comment thread.

We have calls for the judiciary to step in and "take over", calls for the military to take over governments and calls for prosecution for inaction.

You people really have no idea why you are not getting your way do you?

This concept came up in the Guardian threads a while back under the name of 'World Environmental Court' and the comments were very similar. Greens need to get a grip."

Nov 16, 2012 at 10:27 AM | Unregistered CommenterJohn Shade

Well I for one am not a 'citizen' needing to be protected from 'violations by [one's] own government. I'm a Subject of Her Majesty, and quite happy to take up cudgels on my own, and her, behalf thank you very much.

Nov 16, 2012 at 10:40 AM | Unregistered CommenterCumbrian Lad

Delusions of Grandeur enhanced by the attention of the worlds charity lobbyists. I fear for Scotland, I really do.

Nov 16, 2012 at 10:40 AM | Unregistered CommenterLord Beaverbrook

here's a member of the BofE's Monetary Policy Committee in Good company:

19-20 April 2012: JustBanking: The Just Banking conference brought together over 400 academics, campaigners, policy-makers and citizens to address these urgent questions...
The conference opened with an evening lecture from Adam Posen, member of the Bank of England’s Monetary Policy Committee, and a lively panel discussion with Ann Pettifor, Richard Werner and Tony Greenham...
About the organisers
The conference was organised by Friends of the Earth Scotland and the University of Edinburgh Economics Society, in partnership with UNISON, Christian Aid, the New Economics Foundation, the Scottish Trade Union Congress, the World Development Movement and Compass. It was generously supported by **Triodos Bank, the Carnegie Trust, the University of Edinburgh Business School & Economics School, and EUSA. ***Q finance were our official media partners.
Future Events
We are planning a second major conference in London, in late spring 2013...
http://www.justbanking.org.uk/about/

Ann Pettifor: co-author of the Green New Deal and also a fellow of the New Economics Foundation and Director of Advocacy International Ltd and economic think tank Policy Research in Macro Economics.

no left & rightwing MSM in Tony's case:

Tony Greenham: Tony is Head of Finance and Business at the New Economics Foundation (nef), leading the programme of research into reforming the financial sector and aligning the interests of society and business.
After qualifying as a Chartered Accountant with PricewaterhouseCoopers in 1996, he worked in UK Equity Capital Markets first with Barclays Bank and then Credit Suisse where he advised household names such as Sky, GlaxoSmithkline and Debenhams...
Tony is a regular media commentator on banking issues, contributing to various BBC programmes including BBC Newsnight, BBC News 24, Radio 5 Live, as well as Sky News, Channel 4 News and AlJazeera English Newshour, and writing for the Daily Mail, the Guardian and Huffington Post...

**Triodis Bank - Energy & Climate
For a transition from a carbon-based economy to a sustainable economy, it's essential to reduce energy demand, to use energy as efficiently as possible, and to invest particularly in renewable energy systems, while switching to low carbon fuels...
Our Expert - Steve Moore
Steve has focused on renewable energy lending since joining Triodos in 2002, following 15 years of commercial banking experience. Over the past seven years he has played a significant role in the financing of over 25 onshore wind farms and 10 hydro-electric projects in the UK and Ireland...
http://www.triodos.co.uk/en/about-triodos/what-we-do/our-expertise/energy-climate/

***Q Finance - QFINANCE Strategic Advisory Board
Sheikh Hamad Bin Jabor Bin Jassim Al-Thani, Director General, General Secretariat for Development Planning, Qatar...
Robert Gray, Chairman, Debt Finance & Advisory, HSBC...
Jim O'Neill, Chief Global Economist, Goldman Sachs...ETC
http://www.qfinance.com/about-qfinance

why do i doubt they want to save the planet?

Nov 16, 2012 at 10:47 AM | Unregistered Commenterpat

Well if Scotland does split from UK then Salmond will have to get the money from somewhere since the Westminster government will wash its hands of Scotland's debt and with RBS threatening to go south if independence happens there needs to be more eggs in his basket. But ''Climate Justice''? Not a goer for the big bucks, or any bucks for that matter.
Apart from that this is just a bunch of wooly minded left wing liberals on a lovein.

Nov 16, 2012 at 10:53 AM | Unregistered CommenterJohn Marshall

I used to support Amnesty. I can't think of any organisation that has lost its way more than therm.

Nov 16, 2012 at 10:55 AM | Unregistered CommenterGeckko

I wonder if any of these organizations are "accredited" ECOSOC* NGOs who've been getting their bright ideas from the UN Commission on Crime Prevention and Criminal Justice (CCPCJ).

* Office for Economic and Social Council Support and Coordination

CCPCJ - along with the Commission on Sustainable Development (grandfather of the IPCC), the Commission on the Status of Women and the Human Rights Council - is one of the "functional commissions" of ECOSOC.

As I discovered earlier this year, one of the “mandated priority areas” of the CCPCJ is:

Promoting the role of criminal law in protecting the environment

Criminal law to protect the environment is a perfect fit with "climate justice", isn't it?!

Btw, both Amnesty International and Christian Aid are on the roster of those "accredited" with "special consultative status" by ECOSOC.

Agencies granted "special consultative status" (as opposed to "General consultative status") are deemed by the UN powers that be to have:

a special competence in, and are concerned specifically with, only a few of the fields of activity covered by the ECOSOC

That being said, evidently once an NGO has been accredited, doors are open for their participation in whatever international conferences (and prep meetings) their little hearts desire.

Who knows ... Perhaps this set-up was the "model" that gave rise to the activities of the CMEP/IBT and their seminars for the BBC?!

Nov 16, 2012 at 11:10 AM | Registered CommenterHilary Ostrov

Alex Salmond is a huge success story for some lobbying group or other.

I cannot believe he has analysed his own way to his currently very destructive positions as far as the Scottish economy, people, and landscape are concerned. He somehow juggles a love of Scotland with a wish to cripple its competitiveness with unreliable energy, take money to pay for avoidably high energy costs from its populace, and deface its landscapes and seascapes with demonstrably silly methods for the mass production of electricity. These harms will be amplied if imposed on developing countries - firstly by hampering their development and secondly by adding to our costs if we are to be cajoled into subsidising those same madnesses there.

No, he has been very effectively lobbyed. He is a prize catch and I suspect this meeting is there to stroke him and stoke him up a bit further.

Nov 16, 2012 at 11:14 AM | Unregistered CommenterJohn Shade

Alex Salmond channels King Canute. Except that King Canute knew he couldn't stop the tides and was just trying to show his courtiers the limits of earthly power. The hubris of these people, who really think they can stop the weather, is mind-boggling.

Nov 16, 2012 at 11:26 AM | Unregistered CommenterDavid C

I think the Canute comparison is apt, but instead of standing up to his courtiers, (Sturgeon et al), Salmond is paying homage to them.

Nov 16, 2012 at 11:49 AM | Unregistered Commenteradamskirving

Does anyone understand the difference between Amnesty, WWF, Christian Aid (etc, etc, etc)? They all witter on about exactly the same things.

Nov 16, 2012 at 11:53 AM | Unregistered CommenterNeil McEvoy

I have a box of books that I planned to donate to the Amnesty bookshop in Bristol next time I was there.

I think that now I'll try to find a deserving recipient who can burn them for warmth.

Nov 16, 2012 at 11:54 AM | Registered CommenterMartin A

Neil McEvoy - Each of those organisations was set up for very worthwhile reasons to address a particular issue; Amnesty campaigned specifically for the release of prisoners of conscience, WWF a nature conservation group, Christian Aid (as it's name suggests) to provide aid etc, etc,. Each in their own way admirable organisations. Over the last 20years this focus has eroded to the point where they all seem to be an amorphous blob of policy 'influencers' far removed from their simple origins.

Nov 16, 2012 at 11:59 AM | Unregistered CommenterCumbrian Lad

Just tragic. I have always admired Scottish history and culture (from afar) and was under the impression that the Scots were a pragmatic and canny people when it comes to matters of survival. What has happened?

Thanks, Hilary, for the heads-up about the conflation of criminal and civil justice. That explains something about the line of thinking that informed the weird and creepy article in The Guardian about how the judiciary should take over to deliver 'justice' on climate change, since democracy has obviously failed.

I deplore conspiracy theories, but what the eco-fascists don't seem to realise is that they are useful idiots for people with much more sinister agendas. Why go through a messy military coup (so 20th century!) when you can overthrow democracy by appeals to save the planet? The effect is the same - pals get revenue streams and plum jobs, dissenters are suppressed, our chaps are running the show.

Honestly, some of these people shouldn't be let out on their own.

Nov 16, 2012 at 12:01 PM | Registered Commenterjohanna

Cumbrian Lad writes at 11:59 am (above): "Each of those organisations was set up for very worthwhile reasons to address a particular issue; Amnesty campaigned specifically for the release of prisoners of conscience, ..."

Thanks for writing that, CL. Although Amnesty seems to have forgotten this, many of us out here have not; and despise them for their traitorous subversion of the (common) membership.

In their early days I wrote for them as a journalist as a donation to their then high purpose. I would now write against them.

Nov 16, 2012 at 12:16 PM | Unregistered CommenterRoger Carr

The only benefit of Salmond's "green" crusade is that if it's exposed for the disaster it is it'll lessen the chance of him winning the independence debate in 2014.

Not much consolation as he drives the country down the road to the knackers....

>:-|

Nov 16, 2012 at 12:27 PM | Unregistered CommenterNial

4 government funded organisations presenting the government leader teling propaganda lies abou7t how we need more government, with no public input except being allowed to "network" afterwards.

Clearly there is no recession for government parasites.

Nov 16, 2012 at 12:30 PM | Unregistered CommenterNeil Craig

A realclimate post (i.e., Gavie) writes that Nate Silver predicted Obama's victory but was subjected to auditing and protests (including Mann, though Gavin forgot). But Silver was proven right. Only Mann has to wait much, much longer for acceptance.

The sense of the messianic never went away. "I was right. I am right. One day I will be proven right."

Give these wind power people the money they need (at great personal cost no doubt). Let them 'devastate the landscape' (and the public purse). We'd all learn our lessons then, the hard way.

Nov 16, 2012 at 12:36 PM | Registered Commentershub

Ah, yes, let's give up liberty for a reification fallacy, "climate justice."

Nov 16, 2012 at 12:40 PM | Unregistered CommenterGamecock

Re: Neil McEvoy

> Does anyone understand the difference between Amnesty, WWF, Christian Aid

WWF and Amnesty are multinational organisations operating in more than 50 countries whereas Christian Aid is UK based.

Despite only being UK based Christian Aid manages to have an annual income of £95million.

WWF on the other hand has an annual UK income of £58m but since it collects globally its estimated annual income is about $500million.

Amnesty only manages £12.5million in the UK and finding global figures is difficult but it does earn enough globally to hand out ex-gratis payments of £500,000 and £300,000 to former bosses.

I don't think there is any real difference betwen them.

Nov 16, 2012 at 12:44 PM | Unregistered CommenterTerryS

Cunbrian Lad,

I think two things happened.

To a greater or lesser extent they achieved the sensible things they were there for and and were left casting about for a reason to exist. They became institutions more interested in their own existence than concerned with their declared purpose.

The CAGW bandwagon is so juicy and promises so much by way of funds, that they can't resist staking a claim.

I also believe an establishment of left looking bods switching between QUANGOs, fake charities, NGOs, BBC has been created, all sucking (or seeking tio suck) on the public funding tit.

Nov 16, 2012 at 12:45 PM | Unregistered Commentercosmic

"The only benefit of Salmond's "green" crusade is that if it's exposed for the disaster it is it'll lessen the chance of him winning the independence debate in 2014."

The SNP's green lunacy is the biggest factor in me deciding to vote no. Other PC policies being pushed through with no mandate don't help either.

Nov 16, 2012 at 12:52 PM | Unregistered CommenterTed

I suspect this meeting is there to stroke him ...
And what a revolting picture that conjures up. You've quite put me off my lunch.

Nov 16, 2012 at 1:18 PM | Registered CommenterMike Jackson

Climate fanatics are taking an even darker turn. We are watching them laying the ground work for witch trials and pogroms.

Nov 16, 2012 at 1:20 PM | Unregistered Commenterlurker, passing through laughing

"For those natives of Edinburgh"! Don't you mean "For those naives of Edinburgh"? To believe renewable energy can supply any economically useful energy, they are naive.

Nov 16, 2012 at 1:24 PM | Unregistered Commenterilma630

From a political party that has only ever had one credible policy, namely North Sea Oil, it seems a bit hypocritical to be leading the race to save the planet. They really are behaving like a bunch of holy willies on many things and they are going to regret that.

The circle is squared by remembering Salmon worked for the Royal Bank of Scotland before he teamed up with Rupert Murdoch .

My favourite Salmond image

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon/2012/jun/13/leveson-inquiry-alexsalmond

Nov 16, 2012 at 1:26 PM | Unregistered CommentereSmiff

Suggestion, why doesn't everyone book a place under pseudonyms, and just not turn up. Might get a big empty room then.

Nov 16, 2012 at 1:26 PM | Unregistered Commenterilma630

I have always wondered what Christian Aid is doing being so politically advocative. I'm sure that very few of the folk in churches up and down the country realise this is what they are doing, or even that they have received tens of millions of Euros from the EC/EU over recent years. If the truth were made known, then they would probably find that their support would drop off the edge of a cliff. As it is, their charity status should be challenged, as being a charity prohibits any political activity.

Nov 16, 2012 at 2:07 PM | Unregistered Commenterilma630

There is nothing more responsible for the 'decline of the west' than the pandering to these kind of utterly nonsensical ideologies.

What will history write about our time ? It is so truly sad.

Nov 16, 2012 at 2:10 PM | Unregistered CommenterImranCan

@ John Shade

He somehow juggles a love of Scotland with a wish to cripple its competitiveness with unreliable energy, take money to pay for avoidably high energy costs from its populace, and deface its landscapes and seascapes with demonstrably silly methods for the mass production of electricity.

This would be imcomprehensible only if you assume Alex Salmond's aim to be to improve the lot of Scotland. I see no evidence for this. If his main aim were to improve the lot of Alex Salmond it would make perfect sense, however, in the same way as the behaviour of Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, or "Emperor" Bokassa makes sense.

Nov 16, 2012 at 2:56 PM | Unregistered CommenterJustice4Rinka

There is nothing more responsible for the 'decline of the west' than the pandering to these kind of utterly nonsensical ideologies.

What will history write about our time ? It is so truly sad.
Nov 16, 2012 at 2:10 PM | Unregistered CommenterImranCan

==============================================================

It has already been written: From Dawn to Decadence, Jacque Barzun.

http://www.amazon.com/From-Dawn-Decadence-Western-Cultural/dp/0060928832

Nov 16, 2012 at 3:01 PM | Unregistered CommenterGamecock

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/alex-salmond-forced-to-apologise-for-misleading-1438922

Dont pay Student Fees in Scotland.Just cut Student places instead.

Think how many Scottish Wind Turbines those would have been Students payed for.

Sacrificing Scotland's future.

Nov 16, 2012 at 3:55 PM | Unregistered Commenterjamspid

Just tragic. I have always admired Scottish history and culture (from afar) and was under the impression that the Scots were a pragmatic and canny people when it comes to matters of survival. What has happened?

A few hundred years of emmigration to US, Canada , Oz and New Zealand etc have left Scotland with whats left after the best leave.

Nov 16, 2012 at 5:06 PM | Registered CommenterBreath of Fresh Air

I hear Alex Salmond is hot favourite to take over from Chris Patton after the Scottish referendum ends in humiliation for the SNP. Alex has all the right credentials and Quango supporters. :-)
Salmond is an intelligent guy and must understand the energy policies he is imposing on the poor old Scots is a one way ticket to penury. So why? Money is often behind apparently irrational behaviour.

Nov 16, 2012 at 5:07 PM | Unregistered CommenterG.Watkins

Which reminds me ... about this:- climatejustice.co.uk

Nov 16, 2012 at 5:17 PM | Registered CommenterMikeHaseler

@ ilma630
I was a collector for Christian Aid for some years until my eyes were opened to their political activities. I wrote to them about my concerns but (needless to say) never got a reply. I also gently informed my friends about what I knew but this advice was rejected and my Church still collects for these people although no longer with my help. In view of the comments here I might just try again to persuade the donors that I know that their money would be better given to the organ fund, church fabric...anything except CA!

Nov 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM | Unregistered CommenterTony Windsor

At what point did climate fall under Amnesty Internationals remit?

Nov 16, 2012 at 6:12 PM | Unregistered CommenterSunderlandSteve

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