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Discussion > District Heating being pushed as a magic solution

We have had a lot of discussion about it recently
I don't have time to repeat it all

I think their is one anti-activist who says that SSE are doing a scam with it ..they have got into pushing it
They dump waste heat onto householders on hot days
and then book it as a CO2 SAVING in their electricity generation.

Feb 22, 2020 at 2:46 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Friday's in The Times Sky's Ed Conway writes DH is a must if we are to meet CO2 targets.
He costs it at £79bn for 20% of homes

Remember that a lit of UK buildings are not homes.

£79bn thru 6m homes
thats
£79K thru 6 homes
ie £13K per home
or £650pa spread over 20 years

+ "fixing insulation will cost more than HS2"

So he says Boris hasn't done enough planning.

Feb 22, 2020 at 2:51 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

I don't know enough about is, so I hope this thread might educate me. I have, however, noticed this:

"Green heating system accused of causing 'fuel poverty'"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39736010

"A heating system meant to reduce bills is leaving people in fuel poverty, according to campaigners and residents.

The government wants millions of us to get heat and hot water from "district heating networks" to help meet carbon reduction targets.

But residents on some networks say they are more expensive than traditional heating and have been beset with problems.

Providers are working to tackle issues and say some schemes work brilliantly.

Instead of having a gas boiler in every home, heat networks send heat and hot water to numerous properties along a system of underground pipes from one central communal heat source.

This could be a mini-power station in the middle of a housing estate, or waste heat from a recycling plant or a factory.

Those living on the Myatt's Field North Oval Quarter estate in Lambeth, South London get heat from a small power station in a building known as the submarine. The system, run by E.on, was installed when the estate was redeveloped.

Uzoamaka Okafor, chair of the residents' association, said the problems were causing a lot of distress, particularly to elderly and vulnerable residents.

She said some smart meters did not work, which meant people were being sent high estimated bills, including some who were being asked for hundreds of pounds a month.

She said: "It's been riddled with issues, from intermittent hot water and heating, a number of outages, to concerns around high estimates bills, customer service and technical faults.

"There are lots of residents that do not put their heating on at all; they go to bed early. I've bought one resident blankets, because she's so distressed about bills she doesn't want to put the heating on."

Residents said some people were having to choose between heating and eating."

Feb 22, 2020 at 6:49 PM | Unregistered CommenterMark Hodgson

And this:

"Is regulation on the way for heat networks?"

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/team-blog/2018/05/is-regulation-on-the-way-for-heat-networks-/

"Heat networks could soon be regulated after a Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) investigation found that many people are facing higher prices and have less protection over the service they receive.

Heat networks, also known as district heating, are a way of heating a block of flats or even a neighbourhood using a single central boiler, with pipes leading into each home to supply heating and hot water.

According to the CMA, there are 14,000 such networks in the UK, providing heating to about 450,000 people.

However, currently there's no regulator overseeing heat networks, so customers don't have the rights and protections that standard gas and electricity customers receive.

Plus, if you're supplied through a heat network, you can't compare and switch supplier if you're unhappy with the service or price. And with providers usually contracted to supply a site for 25 years or more, there's little incentive to offer a deal that's right for customers.

What are the CMA's concerns?
As heat networks are essentially natural monopolies - in most cases, customers have no option to switch away if unhappy - there's a concern providers have very little incentive to offer more competitive prices or levels of service.

While the initial CMA findings note that, on average, heat networks are currently offering prices around the same level or lower than those of a standard gas and electricity supplier, those living in privately owned or rented homes are paying more.

On average, those on privately operated schemes paid 7.8p a kilowatt hour (kWh), compared with 4.9p/kWh across all heat networks, while the annual heat charge was about £30/year higher.

The key concern, however, is that across the board, heat network customers have few consumer protections.

The CMA found three main areas of concern:

Design and build - the CMA says there's a concern that property developers may have the incentive to go for a network with cheaper upfront costs and higher longer-term operating and maintenance costs. Cheaper systems tend to be less efficient, leaving consumers with higher prices as they usually foot the bill for operating costs.

It also said heat networks may be installed where they're the best way to meet planning requirements, rather than because they're the best option for consumers.

Monopoly of supply - as there are no alternatives for customers for their supply and they're usually locked in to long-term contracts, they cannot hold suppliers to account on price or quality.

Low transparency - before moving in to a property, people are often not told their heating will be supplied by a heat network, and once they're in, bills are confusing and fail to set out important information such as inflation-linked price increases and system maintenance charges."

Feb 22, 2020 at 6:51 PM | Unregistered CommenterMark Hodgson

I don't know enough about is, so I hope this thread might educate me. I have, however, noticed this:
"Green heating system accused of causing 'fuel poverty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39736010
"A heating system meant to reduce bills is leaving people in fuel poverty, according to campaigners and residents.
Feb 22, 2020 at 6:49 PM Mark Hodgson

Wikipedia has this article, but as it emphasises success stories rather than chilling disasters, it is likely that those with vested interests contributed
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating

District Heating Works if there is free waste heat available, or very cheap fuel. It relies on a benevolent owner/operator with an interest in the wellbeing of the end users, rather than a simple profit motive.

Towns built around heavy industry such as mining, iron and steel, petrochemicals etc were ideal, especially, but not exclusively, under state control.

Retro fitting is unlikely to be economic, so not worthwhile unless other factors are relevant and more significant.

In the UK, Local and Central Government used them. Council Tower Blocks, military bases, hospitals, universities etc, sites on a "campus", we're all ideal. If you can build a main boiler house and generate hot water or better still, steam, that can be piped around the site and it's buildings. Where heat is required, for hot water or space heating, a calorifier (a heat exchanger) uses the very hot water or steam to heat a local and self contained system.

If the main boiler or distribution system fails, everyone gets cold. Charging residents for the amount of heat they use is not simple.

They are brilliant when everyone is happy. When they start to go wrong, no one is happy. In the UK, unhappy consumers can complain.

The idea that Green Unreliables can generate enough heat to keep a District Heating System functional 24/7 is another Green Blob fantasy.

Historically, District Heating Systems in the UK and elsewhere became very expensive maintenance nightmares because the steam distribution pipework from the Main Boiler House was insulated with Blue Asbestos (Crocidolite) the most harmful to work with and the most expensive to remove. It was cheaper to allow leaking pipes to carry on leaking rather than carry out repairs. These costs "killed" District Heating Systems for many, and bad reputations still linger for that reason. There are many valid reasons why District Heating Systems should still be avoided.

Feb 22, 2020 at 10:47 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

gc - many thanks.

Feb 23, 2020 at 6:44 PM | Unregistered CommenterMark Hodgson

Mark Hodgson, they work in volcanic areas like Iceland, where geothermal is well in excess of the boiling point of water.

They work in Countries where it remains acceptable to have employees and their families living in very close proximity to the industrial process producing the free waste heat.

They work on UK campus sites because the fuel "oil" used was the cheap unwanted stuff from refineries that had to be kept heated in all weather to keep it liquid.

They ARE Good (if maintained) , but they are NOT a practical solution in most instances. Those who market them as a profit making scheme are unlikely to have happy customers. Politicians are easily fooled.

Feb 23, 2020 at 8:19 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

https://world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Project-launched-to-develop-Finnish-SMR-for-distri
"VTT Technical Research Centre in Finland has today announced the launch of a project to develop a small modular reactor for district heating. Most of the country's district heating is currently produced by burning coal, natural gas, wood fuels and peat, but it aims to phase out its use of coal in energy production by 2029."

Feb 25, 2020 at 11:49 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie