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Discussion > Big Picture Politics

The direction of discussion on my topic has not been as I had expected ( however once it has started, a discussion always develops a life of its own ^.^)
Re: Big Picture Politics.

When the denizens of the Bishop Hill mob join together to discuss important issues, do we do so as members of political parties, as amateur scientists (many I know are far from amateurs) or maybe just as people who enjoy a good argument? I think that you have to answer that question in order to get at my point.

Jan 20, 2017 at 12:04 AM | Registered CommenterDung

Jan 19, 2017 at 11:34 PM | Dung

Agreed! Trying to redefine a question, post hoc, is just another way of rejecting the answer. If Cameron had got a Remain vote, it would have been another 40 years before another Prime Minister dared to ask the UK Electorate anything directly.

The question was deliberately simple. In or Out. How could it have been more complicated, as Cameron (and others) wanted a simple Yes, without any caveats, restrictions or small print, that would have required them to ask permission before signing away further rights to the EU?

Major, Blair and Brown never asked the Electorate's permission, but Politicians of all Parties have been happy to pass responsibility and blame for unpopular new Rules, Regulations and Laws, onto the EU, whilst taking political credit for the popular EU Grants that benefit their creed and/or constituency.

If Major, Blair and Brown had asked the Electorate, there would have been no need for an IN/OUT Referendum in 2016. Remainers including the Politicians and classes, who are now Remoaning have themselves to blame, not those who they chose to ignore for the last 25 years Why did they not clamour for Democracy over the last 25 years?

Jan 20, 2017 at 1:19 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Charlie and Dung name names!

Cameron, Clegg, Farron, Brown, Major and Blair; Oh wait, Farron is out of his depth here, got to fix that. Remove Farron and add the guy who has problems eating bacon sarnies, I think we got them all now ^.^

Jan 20, 2017 at 1:51 AM | Registered CommenterDung

Supertroll:

You say that the specifics of Brexit were unclear at the time of the referendum. True enough I expect, but were the specifics of Bremain any clearer?

Dung:

You ask "who won" and go on to doubt that it divides along any usual political lines. A possibility: if you take golf charlie's rough figures for rusted on Labour and Conservative voters and have them all vote remain, with the less dedicated voters of both sides voting exit, that might get you there. So maybe it's the zealots that lost; a win for moderates of all stripes..

Jan 20, 2017 at 2:00 AM | Unregistered CommenterRobert Swan

Dung, the man who couldn't manage a bacon sandwich, but thought he should manage the country, was the man responsible for the Climate Change Act, even though he got Briony to do the work, who then stabbed his more competent brother in the back, before losing the election and walking out leaving Corbyn in charge, and Labour in tatters.

I expect he is quite relieved you can't remember his name. Those that can, would rather forget it.

You did however remember Tim Farron. What has he ever done or achieved, to deserve remembering?

Jan 20, 2017 at 2:45 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Robert Swan

Thank you for that comment, it allows me to return to my topic hehe.

The idea that every political issue that is important to members of the voting public can be dealt with by voting for one of three major parties is way overdue for reassessment. It is now under serious threat from my BPP.
This accepted mantra is up for a serious kicking.
The British electorate has just discovered that in our newly realised reality, it can do absolutely anything it wants to do and that rules exist to help them get what they want.
The days of "rusted on Labour and Conservative voters" have already gone and the electorate realise this

Jan 20, 2017 at 2:46 AM | Registered CommenterDung

Charlie

Tim Farron should already be famous for a number of reasons hehe.
Farron is the only person who believes that he has anything relevant to contribute to UK politics.

Jan 20, 2017 at 3:09 AM | Registered CommenterDung

The failure of the "BPP" you are referring to is in large part the failure of the compromised gate keepers to honestly deal with the polling data. Sort of like how the climate consensus is based on failing to honestly deal with the data and deciding that "climate crisis" is the only answer to any most questions.

Jan 20, 2017 at 5:23 AM | Unregistered Commenterhunter

Dung

Whether or not the mould of politics is broken at the next election will depend, I suspect, on what happens re Brexit in the next 3 years. If it's fudged, or doesn't happen due to sabotage, then I suspect a strong UKIP vote, the collapse of Labour, a moderately resurgent LibDem Party (pro-EU Labour voters abandoning Labour for them, working class anti-EU Labour voters abandoning Labour for UKIP), and mostly pro-Brexit Tories being returned.

As a pro-Brexit lefty I actually find such a prospect a very mixed one, as it would almost certainly mean politics lurching to the right, though it would get us out of the EU properly.

If Brexit takes place in accordance with the wishes of the 52% then politics nevertheless might not return to normal. Pro-Brexit voters would probably be happy and might continue to vote as before, while anti-Brexit voters will be unhappy, and might make a point of voting for pro-EU candidates. So things might still shake up a bit.

I am pretty sure Cameron had no idea what he was unleashing.

Jan 20, 2017 at 9:00 AM | Unregistered CommenterMark Hodgson

Dung & Mark Hodgson, we could end up with a splinter group of disaffected politicians campaigning for a fresh referendum to vote the UK back into the EU.

Nobody ever asked the UK electorate what sort of EU they wanted, what level of incompetence, fraud, corruption etc was acceptable, or what the EXIT strategy was, before we joined.

Meanwhile, back in Reality UK Politics, the Conservatives have a free rein at the moment, because Labour are destroying themselves from within, and can't decide which direction or sunset to gallop towards.

The UK is in Uncharted Waters, the EU has done nothing to address its own issues, and things are going to get worse for the EU throughout 2017, meanwhile nobody is quite sure what President Trump will deliver, but the UK is in a better position to benefit than any other country in the world.

Jan 20, 2017 at 10:54 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Mark

You have touched ever so gently upon a methodological difference between David Cameron and Russian policy makers. There is a great scene in 'The Hunt for Red October' during which the Captain of a US Aircraft Carrier states that "most Russians don't even take a dump without a plan". Cameron takes the exact opposite approach which explains why there was always such a very bad smell whenever he made policy announcements.

Jan 20, 2017 at 12:02 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Charlie

" Dung & Mark Hodgson, we could end up with a splinter group of disaffected politicians campaigning for a fresh referendum to vote the UK back into the EU."

Problem numero uno is that they would need a leader.
There is no need for a numero duo ^.^

Jan 20, 2017 at 12:23 PM | Registered CommenterDung

hunter

"The failure of the "BPP" you are referring to"
Whoa, cease and desist!
Something which has yet to be defined can not yet be said to have failed

Jan 20, 2017 at 12:27 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Dung, can you imagine the chaos in UK Offices if paperclips are not subjected to rigorous EU Regulations?

Jan 20, 2017 at 1:21 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

You have completely lost me Charlie? hehe

Jan 20, 2017 at 1:34 PM | Registered CommenterDung

golfCharlie. Are you perhaps implying that UK paperclip regulations will be any less stringent than those of the EU? By 2019 British offices must all be equipped with patriotic "bulldog" clips, and, furthermore, Prime Minister MayT will insist that all foreign QWERTY keyboards be replaced by all-British BREXIT keyboards.

Jan 20, 2017 at 2:39 PM | Unregistered CommenterSupertroll

Jan 18, 2017 at 11:42 PM | Dung
I'm bit behind the thread but I couldn't let that comment go by without responding.

Nigel Farrage campaigned for 30 years EU referendum before getting the circumstances which led to the result he wanted. I've no problem with that, but calling Anna Soubry a shyster for continuing to campaign for what she beleives in is way beyond what is the case, in my opinioon. People should be entitled to spend 30 years trying to change peoples minds, Nigel Farrage proved that it can be worthwhile and you can pick up opportunists on your way.

The Greens have spent 50 years trying to persuade people they are right, without success amongst the population but with great success amongst journalists and politicians, proving there is more than one way to kill a cat.

Jan 20, 2017 at 3:20 PM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

Supertroll, I suspect that production of the humble British Paper Clip has been exported to the Far East, so that British and EU air is not contaminated by the CO2 and foul language necessary to ensure they are not compliant with all the EU Regulations that they are actually required for in the modern paperless office.

Paperclips add to the belt destroying Staple diet of vacuum cleaners, even though modern EU Global Warming compliant vacuum cleaners can't suck fluff off a carpet.

Jan 20, 2017 at 5:55 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Paperclips, bah. I wanna know who supplies the clipboards for the Clipboard Brigade.
==========

Jan 20, 2017 at 6:43 PM | Unregistered Commenterkim

Gwendolyn. "...the humble British Paper Clip".... Trump would have your innards for garters. The paperclip is 100% 'merican boy!

Jan 20, 2017 at 7:28 PM | Unregistered CommenterSupertroll

Supertroll, if paperclips are American, why aren't they made there?

I expect President Trump can now add a paperclip to the pile of papers about why he hates Climate Scientists.

Jan 20, 2017 at 9:29 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

SandyS

We have some crossed wires here hehe.

1. I do detest Soubry but not because she has campaigned on whatever issue for over 30 years.
2. I can not even see what comment I made that may have misled you.
I do not want to argue further unless you can help me out ^.^

Jan 20, 2017 at 9:55 PM | Unregistered CommenterDung