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Discussion > First steps towards a sucessful Brexit

steve Richards. You are looking at this from only one side. This problem makes it difficult for EU researchers to propose collaborative research with UK collaborators. They suffer, UK researchers suffer as a consequence.

You suggest British researchers develop research topics and then find EU collaborators. Fine, but then the collaborators will not be able to attract EU funds and the potential collaboration fails. Essentially UK researchers potentially will be excluded from any partnerships involving EU funding.

You raise the question of restrictions of research topics by the EU. This is really a non issue. Scientists are remarkably inventive in getting through such barriers. Think about how much non-climate research has been funded by including the sop that results will be significant to climate change issues. This also explains the many published papers that attach a small climate change rider - papers routinely damned by people here and at WUWT.

In addition, UK Science funding is bound by similar restrictions to those of the EU.

Personally, I believe the scientific community in the UK has every reason to be concerned. There is absolutely no guarantee that the UK government will replace funding lost from the EU. Nothing will replace lost opportunities to collaborate with EU colleagues - something built up over decades.

Jul 4, 2016 at 9:47 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

MartinA. Sorry to disagree, but this sounds potentially serious and possibly a harbinger of more to come. ...
Jul 4, 2016 at 8:04 AM Alan kendall

No I was not commenting specifically on research grants but on how EM seems to view anything whatever to do with Brexit as something awful that is about to happen.

EM has previously (and many times) made it clear that he wallows in his nightmares, whether they are overpopulation or the forthcoming catastrophes die to climate change. Now he has another set of nightmares to keep him awake at night.

I've just returned from a trip to Eire and Brexit does seem to have be regarded there as a catastrophe of some sort which needs to be sorted out asap by direct negotiation with the UK, without waiting for the EU.


I saw many many reasons to vote either way. In the end I voted 'Remain' but without any strong conviction.

But having now seen the reaction of the EU rulers, which seems to contain not the slightest trace of asking "where did we go wrong? What do we need to change?" but more "We will make sure you suffer for deciding to leave our gang" I think I would vote 'Leave' if I were to vote tomorrow. The EU rulers have confirmed its protection racket nature.

Jul 4, 2016 at 10:33 AM | Registered CommenterMartin A

Martin A. You must consider that it is we, the UK, who have jilted the EU and they are hurt by it. They also want to prevent the contagion of other partners doing as we have done. Time will allow cooler heads to prevail and for self interests to be recognized. That is why I think the UK's policy of taking it slowly is the correct one. Unfortunately this may well damage people on the sidelines, like academics and those involved in cultural exchanges. There is increasing evidence of economic damage, even though this is not on the scale forecast by some on the Remain side.

Jul 4, 2016 at 10:59 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

Alan K

Jilted? They are hurt?

We have had forty years of paying for Euro-abuse and, finally, the Continentals had received what has been coming towards them for decades.

I have always found the Continentals warm, generous people, but the Ever Closer Union Club has never been slow to being vindictive, and petty, and ignoring reality.

Just look at the destructive EU Ports legislation, destructive for Britain of course! I would say that alone is enough to confirm that the British people made the right choice.

And then we have Blair, being himself, and Lammy not understanding British values: and he is an MP!

Jul 4, 2016 at 11:35 AM | Unregistered CommenterRobert Christopher

RobertC. I do so hope no one like you will be on the UK negotiating team. You seem incapable of seeing another person's viewpoint. You cannot "step into their shoes".

Jul 4, 2016 at 11:42 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

Ak, I refrained from saying so earlier, but I think that less UK tax going, via the EU, to fund international collaborative academic research will be a good thing. The UK govt has always shown a very high level of competence in pissing money away - we really don't need the EU to do it for us.

I remember the ESPRIT programmes - collossal volumes of money pissed away by the EU on collaborative IT "research" from 1983 to 1998. Presumably the pissing is still going on under some successor programme.

Yes. Googling "esprit programme million" instantly threw up a table listing some successor programmes (but still from ten years ago). Its last line below
European research programs funding speech and language technology
6th Framework Programme 17,500 Million Euro 2002 - 2006

Jul 4, 2016 at 1:54 PM | Unregistered CommenterMartin A

Martin A

It is not hard to find things to worry about. I'm rather spoilt for choice at the moment.

I get the impression that this site is full of engineering and IT professionals. How has Brexit affected your companies to date?

Jul 4, 2016 at 6:54 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

SandyS, MartinA

I note that you are about to become bargaining chips . Have fun.

Incidentally, Robert Christopher is mistaken. The Vienna Convention does not apply in France. They never ratified it.

Jul 4, 2016 at 7:34 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

EM - yes I can see that deciding which thing to worry about at any given moment must be a difficult dilemma (multilemma?).

I can't speak for SandyS but, if he's anything like me, he'll be pretty certain that, five years from now, life will be going on very much as it is at present for current residents of France.

And where was the Vienna Convention mentioned? What has it got to do with anything anyway?

Can you explain what it is that people in Eire are worried about? I was there last week and the papers were full of articles implying that Eire was going to suffer greatly from Brexit, with headlines like "Ireland begs EU leaders to consider us in exit negotiations" "Taoiseach moves fast to bandage wounds from Brexit".

Jul 4, 2016 at 8:08 PM | Registered CommenterMartin A

I get the impression that this site is full of engineering and IT professionals. How has Brexit affected your companies to date?

Jul 4, 2016 at 6:54 PM | Entropic man

In the short term, who can tell? In the Medium to Long Term, British IT and Engineering can help lead the way out of EU dominated Global Warming stupidity. If it means that IT and Engineering professionals who need EU funding to survive, leave the UK for the EU, then that will be a Brain Drain that the UK can live with.

What they will do when the EU runs out of countries prepared to pay for IT and Engineering that no one needs, is retrain.

Jul 4, 2016 at 9:45 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Martin A

Robert Christopher announced that your right of settlement in France was protected by the Article 70b of the 1969 Vienna Convention.


... if you're already resident or have property in an EU country such as Spain, Portugal, or France (and of course Ireland) , then your status would remain unchanged. It's known as an "executed right" under article 70b of the Vienna Convention. There is also the well-recognised principle of acquired (vested) rights.

So, nothing to do with the EU, and it should lessen the fears of those in this position. Yet the Remainers, who have government resources available, and the BBC, with plenty of lawyers, investigative journalists, air time and licence fees, were very indifferent to informing the public about these rights.

It is very puzzling as they have always been so very enthusiastic about 'uman rights in the past!

Jun 28, 2016 at 9:39 AM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

Since France never signed the Vienna Convention this is not the case for you and SandyS.. I do not know what the legal basis for your residence actually is, but if it is based on an EU treaty it is now up for renegotiation.

Brexit opens a considerable can of worms for the Republic of Ireland.I"ll try to identify a few.

.1) 860,000 Irish citizens live in the UK. They currently have a de facto right of residence under the Common Travel Agreement.
After Brexit these become EU citizens of a non-EU country and are subject to whatever measures the government takes to restrict EU immigrants or repatriate them. The CTA is unlikely to survive Brexit because the Irish border will become the only land border between the UK and the EU. To effectively control immigration the UK will need to close that border and police it as they now do in Calais.
Many Republic citizens live in the South and work in the North or vice versa.How will they be affected?

2) A considerable proportion of Irish trade is with the UK. 15% of their exports are to the UK and most of the rest are exported through the UK to the EU. 32% of their imports are purchased from the UK and much of the rest are imported from the EU through the UK.
Brexit will require the negotiation of new trade and movement treaties, with unknown tariffs. if nothing is agreed then 10% WTO tariffs kick in automatically. The closed border will require customs checks on all land, ferry and air travel between the Republic and the UK, including traffic in transit to the continent.

3)There are considerably political implications for relations with Northern Ireland. First is the Good Friday Agreement which effectively ended the Troubles. This set the pattern for relations between communities in the north and across the border. The GTA is partly predicated on existing EU treaties and will become invalid after Brexit, with a risk of reactivating the Troubles. That means bombs and dead Garda in the Republic on top of anything in NI.
Second is the possibility of a united Ireland.This has become a live issue again as the large nationalist minority of the North see a united Ireland as preferable to a Brexiteers UK and many moderate Unionists may agree. As an Englishman in Ulster I find myself leaning that way too. If it happens, then the Republic government would have to cover the €18billion deficit in the North's budget and rule 1 million thran protestants whose TDs would hold the balance of power in the Dail. If Northern Ireland combines with Scotland and Gibralter to stay in the EU, what weirdness would then ensue?

Overall the Republic sees a lot of difficulties arising as a result of Brexit and no advantages. No surprise that they are nervous.

Jul 4, 2016 at 10:47 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

MartinA, SandyS

A quick trawl suggests that once Brexit happens you will need to apply for a residency visa to stay in France.

Jul 4, 2016 at 11:05 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

I do not know what the legal basis for your residence actually is, but if it is based on an EU treaty it is now up for renegotiation.

A quick trawl suggests that once Brexit happens you will need to apply for a residency visa to stay in France.

Be realistic. France is not going to chuck out people who have been living there legally and peacefully for years, own property, and are paying their taxes.

They don't even chuck out people who have just arrived and entered the country on no legal basis whatever.

Jul 5, 2016 at 12:09 AM | Registered CommenterMartin A

EM, under what rights did so many from Eire come to live and work in the UK before the EU?

As one of my Grandfathers did precisely that, am I likely to be deported? If so, to where? Aren't you assuming that the EU is going to be very spiteful towards the UK, and very racist and anglophobic?

Are your concerns based on fact, or conjecture? Trying to create fear about what might happen sounds like Climate Science. Are you predicting or projecting or just scaremongering again?

Jul 5, 2016 at 1:35 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Why assume EM is predicting, projecting or scaremongering? His posts seem to be a fair appreciation of some of the main problems that beset greater Ireland as a result of Brexit. The fears expressed only become reality if those problems are ignored and nothing or little is done to address them.

If anyone else had written his posts you would be taking them seriously. You are attacking the messenger.

Jul 5, 2016 at 7:37 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

Are your concerns based on fact, or conjecture? Trying to create fear about what might happen sounds like Climate Science. Are you predicting or projecting or just scaremongering again?
Jul 5, 2016 at 1:35 AM golf charlie

gc - it's in poor EM's nature to imagine the worst - and most frightening - conceivable case which then becomes his reality. He'll then obsessively search for things to confirm his terrors, whether it is climate change, overpopulation, exhaustion of resources, nasty microbes (?not quite sure if that was EM) or - the latest addition - the horrible imagined consequences of Brexit.

But, in the case of Ireland, look at the reality. Despite it having become a republic (in 1949 or whenever it was) Irish people were still free to settle in the UK, even having the right to vote there. The creation of the EU did nothing to change that. And the UK no longer being ruled from Brussels will not change that either.

Jul 5, 2016 at 9:46 AM | Registered CommenterMartin A

EM. Why do you think some Brexiteers here are seeming able to put blinkers on and deny the possibilities of problems arising from the UK's withdrawal from the EU? Nothing must disturb the bright uplands of the post-brexit UK that they imagine. Too soon to claim some of the Remainers fears were well or ill-founded, but not too soon to be concerned about known problems.

Jul 5, 2016 at 10:06 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

If only the Climate 'Scientists' had questioned the problems arising from Windmill Mania as vigorously as some Remainers are now, we wouldn't be working towards a less resilient National Grid.

The difference is that while they have been denying the reality of the Laws of Physics, Chemistry and basic Economics, Retainers have been putting their faith in Cameron and Osbourne's Project Fear, which has been shown to be systematic, organised hot air.

The Establishment aren't call that for nothing.

Jul 5, 2016 at 10:38 AM | Unregistered CommenterRobert Christopher

Martin A

I could discuss your panglossian optimism about Brexit, but having spent years observing your similar panglossian optimism about AGW I know it would be wasted effort.

Did you see this morning's news report suggesting that the border controls at Calais should be moved to Dover. I see growing French Anglophobia, especially with French elections coming up.It would score easy points on the Right.

The logic of Brexit requires the changes I described in the relationship between the UK and the Republic of Ireland. Anything less negates their desire to limit EU immigration. The Brexiteers grossly underestimated the complexities that would ensue on the island of Ireland.

Incidentally, partition took place in 1922. Do your research before going off half-cocked.


You are a UK citizen by birth so you are not going to be deported.

You might well be entitled to dual UK/Eire citizenship. Apply for an Irish passport. It would make travel into the EU much easier.

Jul 5, 2016 at 10:56 AM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

Alan Kendall

I am watching the news conference in which the Bank of England Governer is delivering his current Financial Stability Report. Much of it discusses the short term damage and deteriorating outlook after the Brexit vote.

Jul 5, 2016 at 11:07 AM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

Martin A

I forgot to mention.

In the 1930s the Eire government conducted a trade war against the UK. The war, and the ongoing protectionism which followed, severely damaged the Irish economy.

Eire knows the consequences of economic policies such as Brexit from direct experience and has no desire to see it happen again.

Jul 5, 2016 at 11:27 AM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

I am most reluctant to jump on such things as the fall in the pound (causing increases in fuel costs) and trouble with the building industry, as evidence that Project Fear might turn into Project Reality, because they may well be short term effects.
However it is better to anticipate and prepare for negative effects, as the Governor of the Bank of England seems to be doing. Deliberately poo-pooing them as fearmongering seems to be the actions of an ostrich or the hopelessly optimistic.
Mixing up Brexit with AGW also seems, to me at least, as unwise. In the UK parliament, the overwhelming number of MPs (both Leave and Remain) are still for AGW and decarbonizing our energy supply.

Jul 5, 2016 at 11:55 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

Incidentally, partition took place in 1922. Do your research before going off half-cocked.
Jul 5, 2016 at 10:56 AM Entropic man

EM please give your spectacles a wipe. Or stop imagining that I said something quite different from what I actually said. I said nothing whatever about partition.

I said "Despite it having become a republic (in 1949 or whenever it was) Irish people were still free to settle in the UK, even having the right to vote there".

As I said, the Irish Republic came into being in 1949:

The Republic of Ireland Act 1948 vested in the President of Ireland the power to exercise the executive authority of the state in its external relations, on the advice of the Government of Ireland. The Act was signed into law on 21 December 1948 and came into force on 18 April 1949, Easter Monday.

The Act ended the remaining statutory role of the British monarchy in relation to the state, by repealing the 1936 External Relations Act, which had vested in George VI and his successors those functions which the Act now transferred to the President."

French anglophobia? If you believe what you read in the post Brexit Grauniad, you'll believe anything.

Jul 5, 2016 at 12:10 PM | Registered CommenterMartin A

Alan Kendall

The Brexit view is looking optimistic. To quote the Financial Stability Report

"There is evidence that some risks have begun to crystallise. The current outlook for UK financial stability is challenging."

Unfortunately there is a politically correct mantra that the a majority vote in a referendum is sacrosanct and must be obeyed. Nobody seems willing to consider that the majority might be wrong in this case.

I find it very ironic that the BH regulars have changed their tune. They have been claiming for years that the majority verdict on climate change must be wrong. Now they claim that the majority verdict on Brexit must be right.

As the post-referendum reality crystallises (Thank you for that, Mark Carney) it looks increasingly likely that Brexit is the wrong decision. Despite this we rush lemming-like towards the brink.

Jul 5, 2016 at 12:31 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

EM: what a strange view - that a referendum can produce a 'wrong' decision...

There is the decision, right or wrong, good or bad, it is the decision.

How someone views the 'rightness' of a decision is a value judgment and we all have different values...

Jul 5, 2016 at 12:55 PM | Unregistered CommenterSteve Richards