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Discussion > EU must be joking

TinyCO2......NO they are not going to win because finally the public is waking up to what is going on, with Farage out there at public meeting after public meeting; the message is getting through.

Mike...Do not leave until you answer my question "what is the downside if the UK leaves the EU?" Do not mention economic or financial issues because I would not trade democracy away for money.

Alan.... I thought I answered both your questions at 1.02 pm above.

Apr 24, 2016 at 4:29 PM | Registered CommenterDung

mike fowle
Have you never thought about UK regulations and red tape - "that's daft". I know I have

It also applies to UK businesses, I recently got texts everyday from EE telling me how wonderful and cheap their charges from the EU are on a UK mobile phone, often in the early hours. We have a UK mobile my wife uses and a French one I use. After trying various avenues asking EE to stop sending them everyday and once would be enough, I was told that their system wasn't able to stop sending these messages. Eventually I worked out that they came from a single number which I put on a spam list. Coupled with a letter to my MP who wrote to EE on my behalf which saw the frequency reduce the problem has been solved.

So I'd say after Brexit you'll still be saying "that's daft".

Apr 24, 2016 at 7:06 PM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

Dung
I sincerely hope that if the UK leaves the EU you get the democracy you so desire, but to quote Burns when addressing the mouse and the fear factor rather than just democracy in the UK..

Still, thou art blest, compar'd wi' me!
The present only toucheth thee:
But Och! I backward cast my e'e,
On prospects drear!
An' forward, tho' I canna see,
I guess an' fear!

In this case for me that means there'll be not much change, with directives coming direct from World HQ (the UN) rather than via European HQ (the EU).

Apr 24, 2016 at 7:14 PM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

SandyS on Apr 24, 2016 at 7:14 PM
"I sincerely hope that if the UK leaves the EU you get the democracy you so desire ..."

Don't you want Democracy or any chance of choosing your destiny?

Plans have been drawn up for a full-blown 'United States of Europe' and Britain will have little say, warns top Tory minister
* Commons leader Chris Grayling said EU figures were already signed up
* The documents speaks of 'concrete' plans to 'deepen integration'
* It talks about 'more, not less Europe' was needed to meet challenges

Plans have been drawn up for a full-blown United States of Europe over which Britain will have 'very little say', a Cabinet minister warned today.

The Prime Minister has promised that, as a result of his referendum reforms, Britain will not be sucked into an EU superstate.

But Chris Grayling, the leader of the Commons, pointed to a document signed last September in Rome by the speakers of the national parliaments in Germany, France, Italy and Luxembourg.

It says that 'concrete proposals' to deepen EU integration towards a 'federal union of states' will be drawn up at a meeting in Luxembourg next month.

The joint declaration states: 'We are convinced that new impetus must be given to European integration. We believe that more, not less, Europe is needed to respond to the challenges we face.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3556298/Plans-drawn-blown-United-States-Europe-Britain-little-say-warns-Tory-minister.html

It looks like a Remain vote will leave us in a worse position than being a dependency, especially with the anger, on the Continent, with Cameron's ridiculous renegotiations.

If the Remainians said they wanted to be governed by unelected bureaucrats, at least they would be honest!

At least a Brexit will give us a chance.

Apr 24, 2016 at 8:53 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

Dung

"what is the downside if the UK leaves the EU?"

My parents and grandparents went through two European wars.

There has not been war between EU states since 1945. I am not inclined to risk that equilibrium by Brexit.

Apr 24, 2016 at 9:25 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

SandyS and EM.. have courage and determination gone out of fashion? Once we leave the EU and also get ourselves a real patriot as a leader then the EU and the UN have no way to control us, the spineless Cameron is part of the UN and the EU hegemony but we will not be. When push comes to shove then you have to stand up and be counted not find reasons to stay 'out of it'.
If the UN pushes us then we push back and we do not give an inch, if they play hardball then we play better, you just do NOT give away your sovereignty.

Apr 24, 2016 at 9:52 PM | Registered CommenterDung

EM

My Mother loaded bomb carriages for Lancasters in World War 2, and my father fought in Burma. My Grandfather won medals in WW 1 and nobody likes war. However sometimes war is forced upon you and at those times it is no good just whining. When Hitler started his take over, many countries just rolled over and thanked him for sparing human life, others (like France) actually joined in and helped him. Without Britain the pompous DeGaule would have been just one more corpse on the pile. Continental Europe (apart from Germany) is submissive and weak and if they want to cede their sovereignty yet again then let them do it but for god's sake do not suggest joining them.
I think it is worth remembering that 'for evil to triumph all that is needed is for good men to stand aside and do nothing'.

Apr 24, 2016 at 10:08 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Dung

Once we leave the EU and also get ourselves a real patriot as a leader then the EU and the UN have no way to control us,

I hope you are not advocating "strong government"

History has shown repeatedly where that leads.

Apr 24, 2016 at 10:28 PM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man

Heh, Brussels is a strengthening government.
==========

Apr 25, 2016 at 8:36 AM | Unregistered Commenterkim

Yes.

Most of my rellies were struggling for democracy rather than bureaucracy.

Apr 25, 2016 at 8:56 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Reed

SandyS. I agree that there are an awful lot of home made "daft" regulations and I don't assume that they will all be miraculously swept away if we leave. There was an interesting post at the Adam Smith Institute on 30th March which argued that regulations and oversight of trade is now made at a supranational level through such organisations as the WTO, the UN, WHO, International Labour Organisation, maritime organisations and so on. Globalisation has in some senses rendered the EU otiose, an unnecessary middleman. Our input to such regulation is diluted by having to go through the EU rather than being an independent voice. I do think that we tend to be a more pragmatic nation than some - adopting the attitude that what is not specifically banned is allowed, rather than the continental approach that everything must be specifically authorised (yes, I know that's an oversimplification).

Apr 25, 2016 at 9:42 AM | Unregistered Commentermike fowle

Robert Christopher
I'd love democracy and freedom, what Scot doesn't? I'm just not sure that Brexit will deliver it, just as likely a strong leader and the reverse and Mike Fowle has highlighted the other reason, which I have also previously mentioned.

I think Entropic man has made valid posts regarding strong government and the EU and war. I have already made the point that the breakup of the Soviet Bloc has caused the only wars in Europe since 1945, and from where he is located he is in a good position to comment on nationalistic unrest and troubles

Dung this is going to be a rant.
I suggest you visit Verdun before commenting on Europeans rolling over, you might also read about Dakar, Oran,Mers-el-Kebir and Diego Saurez (Madagascar) and understand why DeGaulle and many French people weren't and aren't particularly keen on Churchill, although DeGaulle said nice things about Scotland It might also interest you to know that the French Navy fought with more nationalities than any other during WW2 chiefly Royal Navy, Italian Navy, German Navy, Japanese Navy, US Navy and the Thai Navy their army also engaged the same nationalities after the fall of France, the ferocity of the fight put up by the Vichy French surprised the British. It might also be of interest for you to read about the Dutch Navies involvement in WW2 post German Invasion of The Netherlands. The Czech (145 pilots) and Polish (88 pilots) exiles contributed a great deal in the Battle Britain and with over 200 pilots as many as Australia and New Zealand combined. These people didn't just sit and feel sorry for themselves just as many resisted which is much more difficult than cooperating , as Oradour-Sur-Glane, Lidice and Kľak bear witness. If you can walk round Oradour more than twice then you're a better man than me.

Apr 25, 2016 at 11:21 AM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

SandyS.
I think deGaulle had a a wider disdain than just Churchill. His animosity seems to have extended to most of the English speaking world. I was in Canada when deGaulle gave his "vive Quebec, vive Quebec libre" speech. This soured French-Canadian relations for years and gave comfort to the separatist movement in Quebec. Wasn't it also deGaulle who called for the removal of all American troops from France? This led to one of my favourite President Johnson quips when he asked over the telephone something like " what even those in the cemeteries".

We may seek strong leadership but, as has previously noted, they usually cause more problems than they solve.

Apr 25, 2016 at 11:57 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

Alan Kendall on Apr 25, 2016 at 11:57 AM
"what even those in the cemeteries"

Brilliant!

Apr 25, 2016 at 12:12 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

Alan Kendall

That was indeed a brilliant and telling quote from LBJ.

Just to set the record straight I said that we needed a patriotic leader not a strong leader and I said that because Cameron and Blaire were not patriots. Cameron is demonstably not governing this country in the best interests of either its people or its economy, he has other agendas.

Apr 25, 2016 at 12:30 PM | Registered CommenterDung

SandyS on Apr 25, 2016 at 11:21 AM
"I'd love democracy and freedom, what Scot doesn't? I'm just not sure that Brexit will deliver it ..."

It won't, on its own, but what are you suggesting, that we Remain?

The report mentioned in my 'Apr 24, 2016 at 8:53 PM' post highlights just how committed the Continental politicians are to 'Ever Closer Union'. Cameron's idea that we can reform the EU, when his renegotiations delivered nothing of substance, is laughable. I have spoken to several on the Continent over the years and they are totally committed, to the point where they cannot see our point of view. They look inward, towards each other, not outwards to the rest of the world, like we do. It is a different world. We can trade with them but we will never have a common view without much disharmony.

If that is what you want, with the near certainty of Britain being in the Euro, in Schengen, the evolving sharing out of Germany's new illiterate visitors, the creation of a Euro-coastguard, the incessant meddling (as confessed by Juncker), the free market in goods but not in services, the threat of TTIP, the anti-British emphasis of everything EU, the consequences of a customs union, the likelihood of London's financial market being continually attacked and the inevitable loss of needing our own parliament, the stupidity of Whitehall implementing EU directives and the breakup of England (to be replaced by regions), when we are seeing the signs of revolution by EU citizens, go for it.

The Euro-elites are even more disconnected from their 'common man' than ours. There are reports that in Sicily the Mafia have shot an immigrant trying to muscle in on their business. With the other events that have happened, it another sign that law and order are not what it was.

However, if we (can) leave, that is, a successful Brexit, at least we will have some say in our future.

Luckily, just before Dunkirk, our leaders didn't say, 'It does look rather risky, and there is no certainty that this plan will deliver a victory'. There was no certainty, but it was (one of the many) turning points in the war and, without it, victory would have been impossible.

If you want to Remain, what do you expect will happen?

With a deluge of EU directives swamping us if we Remain, the status quo will not continue.

Apr 25, 2016 at 12:48 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

So we just missed playing the immigrant/ race card a few days ago, and are now in full swing playing the whole militaristic WW II suit. What next, what has the EU (with its hoards of johnny foreigners) also imposed upon us against our combined will? I cannot wait for the next episode. It's worse than Game of Thrones, and according to our own Brexiters, it would seem there are similarities.

The UK is the new Westeros.

Winter is coming.

Apr 25, 2016 at 1:24 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

June 6th Manchester
Be part of a @VictoriaLIVE BBC EU Referendum debate in Manchester (for all ages) email victoria@bbc.co.uk to apply

May 24th Glasgow YOUTH
Be part of a BBC One EU Referendum debate for 18-29 year olds. Email Monica.soriano@bbc.co.uk to apply

Apr 25, 2016 at 2:06 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Alan Kendall

Tell me what 'sustainability' means please? Are you at all worried that our government has been 'embedding' sustainability in everything it does, from the NHS to our armed forces?

Apr 25, 2016 at 2:10 PM | Registered CommenterDung

It seems strange that some here suggest that the additional layer of government of the EU, is ok, and preferable. And it does not matter that is is not democratic because we already have quasi-appointed positions in the UK system!

So two layers of appointed party officials are twice as good as one layer!!

Forced mergers of countries, peoples or political systems never survive a long time when the peoples are of a different culture.

Apr 25, 2016 at 2:39 PM | Unregistered CommenterSteve Richards

Alan Kendall on Apr 25, 2016 at 1:24 PM
"So we just missed playing the immigrant/ race card a few days ago ..."

So why are you raising the issue?

But, as you have raised it, how did thousands of young girls get raped while the Police and Social Services stood by and did nothing, while accepting salary and pension contributions from taxpayers? The Police even arrested a parent who tried to point out their misapplied zeal of arresting their young daughter! I think the PC agenda, backed up by unchangeable EU law had a hand, the ratchet effect. And it's not just a British problem, it is occurring across the EU: try Cologne railway station or Malmo, nearly anywhere! Luckily we are outside Schengen, for now! Try Googling "Three Stages of Jihad" and watch the video: an interesting History lesson.

"what has the EU (with its hoards of johnny foreigners) also imposed upon us against our combined will?"
What planet are you living on? There's Windmill Mania, Green taxes, the inability of expelling very unpleasant foreigners, taking control over large parts of our industry and Ministers finding they can often do little because there is inevitably an EU law against it, to name just a few!

Even May, a Remainer, can't sort out what is to be done, given that it isn't certain that we can leave the European Convention on Human Rights and stay in the EU. They are all at sixes and sevens:
Britain should leave European Convention on Human Rights but not EU, says Theresa May
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/25/eu-referendum-uk-eu-migration-free-for-all-michael-gove-brexit

I do notice that you have offered no suggestions to my questions, so are you quite relaxed Britain becoming something even less than a colony:
Britain in danger of becoming a colony of EU – Owen Paterson
http://tapnewswire.com/2016/04/britain-in-danger-of-becoming-a-colony-of-eu-owen-paterson

Apr 25, 2016 at 2:40 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

Steve Richards on Apr 25, 2016 at 2:39 PM
"It seems strange that some here suggest that the additional layer of government of the EU, is ok, and preferable. And it does not matter that is is not democratic because we already have quasi-appointed positions in the UK system!"

Steve, in addition, it is the 'additional layer of government of the EU' that makes the 'quasi-appointed positions in the UK system' even more resistant to change than they might have been.

Apr 25, 2016 at 3:27 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

Robert, I believe that the matter of immigration and race was narrowly skirted in a previous post (may even have been one of yours but I didn't wish to pin blame), and I was pleased that we didn't move into that contentious arena then. I have not raised the issue at all. But now you've gone and blotted your copybook.. Good, I suppose, to have it out in the open, showing all its warts and open sores for all to see. I'm sad to say you will have many admirers and followers. That argument and recourse to past military history (when it was us against Europe) just doesn't have any appeal to

I have resolved to try not to answer questions when there is no point of contact between the questioner and myself. I can summarize differences in this issue very simply. You see UK-rest of Europe in terms of us and them. I believe your opponents consider us to be part of them , or better still there is only we. As I have previously stated I'm still a fence sitter, but am being driven towards the Remain camp by reading increasingly more strident and little Englander like messages from the Leave campaigns and, to a small degree, from what I see here. Sorry, but in my mind you're losing. You're not persuading me at all.

This whole business reminds me of the old story about storms shutting down cross channel ferries and the British newspaper headlines the next day. - " Continent shut off by gales"

Party on!

Apr 25, 2016 at 3:29 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

Dung. I don't use the word "sustainability". Horrible greeny, social sciency sort of word, much beloved by a certain type of student. Spent some of my teaching life explaining how mining could, by definition, never be sustainable.

Not using the word, I suggest you may be confusing me with someone else.

Wiki has a section on it, including a definition.

Apr 25, 2016 at 3:36 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

Alan Kendall on Apr 25, 2016 at 3:29 PM

"But now you've gone and blotted your copybook."
So I have! But so has Theresa May. She wants to leave the European Convention on Human Rights but stay in the EU, because it will protect us against terrorists:
Theresa May admits Britain would flourish OUTSIDE the EU but says we should stay in the Brussels club to protect us against terrorists
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3557586/Theresa-admits-Britain-flourish-OUTSIDE-EU-says-stay-Brussels-club-protect-against-terrorists.html

Except that EU security does appear to be a lot worse than ours!

"contentious arena"
Are we not allowed to enter any 'contentious arena'? Your History lessons must have been a joy to behold! :) If it is a 'safe space' that you are looking for, it would be better to view that video I suggested at 2:40 PM, though that is contentious History as well.

"when it was us against Europe"
A good many Europeans fought on the Allies side, including Poles in the RAF and French in the Resistance. There were a few Britons on the wrong side as well.

"...little Englander like messages from the Leave campaigns ..."
There were plenty of warnings of what was to come in the 1930's (another contentious arena), and they were not heeded for some time. So, while not all warnings come to pass, they should be carefully considered, not discarded without thought. Consider what it would have been like, being one of those women abused in Cologne railway station. Not being attacked and eventually escaping, but how your government reacted:
Mayor says women should have code of conduct to prevent future assault
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mayor-of-cologne-says-women-should-have-code-of-conduct-to-prevent-future-assault-a6798186.html

Not only were the suggestions offensive to any independent woman, they would be impractical and ineffective. This is the mentality of the politics there: unable to display any common sense. We have similar occurrences, but in both cases, it is the overarching, remote, unworldly hand of Brussels that stultifies any common sense action. No wonder the protests against the Establishment are growing.

"You see UK-rest of Europe in terms of us and them"
I see Continental Europe fanatically welded to 'Ever Closer Union', even though it has brought financial hardship and social unrest, while I and most of Britain think that policy will destroy much of what we value about Europe. I would still like be able to go on holiday there and for Britain to trade with Europe, but not meddle in each others political affairs.

" Continent shut off by gales"
A perfectly valid view, from Dover. :)

You still haven't even hinted whether you are relaxed about Britain becoming something even less than a colony, or whether you would prefer something different.

Apr 25, 2016 at 4:50 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher