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Discussion > EU must be joking

Alan kendall
Adults think of a class of children 28 nationalities as a problem, For children they are just friends, they don't even have names they find strange. It isn't strange that these friends go and visit family all over Europe and at the same time they go to Europe for holidays with their family. When you can hop on a train (from SE UK at least) have lunch and do the shops in Paris or Brussels and be home in time for Eastenders then it doesn't matter whether the faceless ones are in London or Brussels as long as they don't stop you having a good time you don't worry. I can totally understand why she feels a European. In many respects it's probably better than being English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish first, British second and European third.

I assume that, like me, it was your parents who fought in the war, so for me the Tyrol is where my father spent 4 years as POW for my children and grandchildren the Austria is a place for skiing holidays. On reflection their perception is probably one that I should aspire to.

Jun 25, 2016 at 5:19 PM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

Alan kendall 5:08PM

That's a good idea. I too worry about things being reactivated, the peace isn't that old and the divisions aren't restricted to Northern Ireland.

Jun 25, 2016 at 5:25 PM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

Tony Blair's words on Brexit.
Op-Ed Contributor Tony Blair: Brexit’s Stunning Coup

.....I was the prime minister responsible for legislating substantial self-rule in Scotland so that it would remain part of the United Kingdom. I negotiated the Good Friday Agreement so that Northern Ireland could be at peace within Britain.
.....
It was already clear before the Brexit vote that modern populist movements could take control of political parties. What wasn’t clear was whether they could take over a country like Britain. Now we know they can.
....

Jun 25, 2016 at 5:52 PM | Registered CommenterMartin A

There's also the small possibility that the Republic leaves the EU. It's a small chance but if more European nations start to analyse just exactly the how's and why's of Brexit along with what's coming for EU centralisation policies people may have had enough.

Like I said, a slim chance as the South is very pro EU but they also didn't like the effective loss of sovereignty and the terms of the bailout. And they are continuing to pay for a bailout with what's happening with Greece again. Some economists and politicians have voiced concern about the lopsidedness of the EU. This situation with the North may cause a few to think. Not that likely mind but you never know.

Jun 25, 2016 at 5:57 PM | Registered CommenterMicky H Corbett

"why should I have to do all this shit"

Hey Dung £142500 a year doesn't seem to help then. I suppose he will earn a lot more in Brussels as he has the umm qualifications.....

Jun 25, 2016 at 6:15 PM | Unregistered CommenterMartyn

I suspect the translated comment would have been "why do I have to do this with those shitsheads".

£142500 is no remuneration for having to work with former friends turned political enemies and someone who has been envious of Cameron's political success since their university days. I am impressed that he is not storming off now and is prepared to steer the ship until a successor is chosen.

I don't think the EU will be employing anyone from the UK.

Jun 25, 2016 at 7:07 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

Alan are you really that bored that you need to be continually cantankerous. Go read a book or lighten up a little at the gym.

Jun 25, 2016 at 7:26 PM | Unregistered CommenterMartyn

Alan Kendall 7:07, what is the UK going to do with all those former UK employees of the EU?

If your Granddaughter feels betrayed by the older generations in the UK, how should Cameron feel about the loyalty shown to him by his EU buddies? The EU has betrayed the UK, and as someone born in the early 1960s, I have never been able to vote on anything about the EU before. Even MPs didn't get a vote on Maastricht. That is Democracy EU style, it makes it so much easier to ignore the people. It was designed that way.

Jun 25, 2016 at 9:06 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

As with Climate Change, today's youth appear to have been taught as school but one view as being gospel.
All things good stem from our membership of the EU.
As a regular reading of the EUreferendum website shows, many of these things (Roaming charges as an example), come from World trade bodies.
The EEA/EFTA is never mentioned as a route to gain access to the single market.
Those who voted leave, because they believe that this will stop emigration from the EU, are going to be very disappointed. Looks like a case of "Right result, wrong reasons"
Our problem now, is finding competent people to negotiate our exit on the best possible terms. People who have a thorough understanding of the issues, EU law, EU & Global trade and doubtless a myriad of other issues. They have to realise that Article 50 is the only way out, so that appears to rule out Mr Johnson!
We've seen complete & utter bullshit spouted by both sides, from Leavers' claims of saving £350m a week, to Remainers' claims of WW3 starting. The legacy media apparently unable to spot such erroneous claims when they're raised & challenge the claimants.
We've voted Leave, will we be "allowed" to do that?

Jun 25, 2016 at 9:44 PM | Unregistered CommenterAdam Gallon

Adam Gallon on Jun 25, 2016 at 9:44 PM
"... today's youth appear to have been taught as school but one view as being gospel."
So true!

"... Those who voted leave, because they believe that this will stop emigration from the EU ..."
No one is expecting EU immigration to stop. That means no one arriving at all! And even if it did stop, it doesn't mean people can't come over on holiday, for business or study, but they would like grants owed to British taxpayers to be repaid, and their medical expenses to be funded themselves and not the British taxpayer.

Jun 25, 2016 at 10:18 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

Adam Gallon

We've voted Leave, will we be "allowed" to do that?

Good question, should be no doubt. All the good and great have said 'out means out'. But with the split being near 50/50 there will always be a 'legacy' but rest assured the 'legacy' will be stronger more intense and have far greater implications if we do not "allow" a democratic decision to prevail.

Jun 25, 2016 at 10:20 PM | Registered CommenterGreen Sand

Martyn. So many thanks for your most helpful, but slightly gratuitous advice. Might I also, in kind, offer you my advice, also gratuitously? If you are irritated by my posts (replying to yours) just try to ignore them. If you offer up snide comments you should expect to have them sometimes challanged by people like me. Objecting to your unfounded implication that Cameron would sell out to the EU is not being cantankerous. But I didn't even challenge you directly; instead I simply pointed out that someone like Cameron is underpaid and most unlikely to be employed by the EU. You would know it if I wanted to be cantankerous.

Jun 25, 2016 at 11:10 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

Alan kendall on Jun 25, 2016 at 4:45 PM
"My granddaughter feels she belongs to Europe. She wants to be European before being a UK citizen."
Why does she? Could it be because the EU wants to destroy the identity of the European nations, working hard in schools and universities to further their ends:
EU Parliament Visitor Centre
National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times …
The only final remedy for this supreme and catastrophic evil of our time is a federal union of the peoples …

It might have been true in some European countries but, in Britain, the opposite has been true.

So the EU have managed at least one follower in your family!

Have you explained to her that letting feelings rule lives doesn't always create a stable world? Have you explained the power of advertising and political propaganda? What if she she feels like being a part of the world?

Have you explained to her that, if we follow her feelings, we will need to fund those desperate unemployed youth in Greece and Spain so they can find work, buy medicines for hospitals, just like we do with the poorer parts of Britain? And if they take advantage of our generosity, we just continue with the giving.

It will mean fewer books in her school, her local library will close (like ours is planned to do), and she cannot complain because the EU Commissioners are always right. And the efforts of the local community will dwindle because there will be no point in putting in the effort.

We cannot protest in any civilised way, because the EU has no mechanism. It is a dictatorship.

She probably has never met the concept of demos. It is why we accept paying our taxes. It is why we have the first B in BBC. It is why we feel we have responsibility for our national debt, and not for anyone else's, like Greece, Italy, France, Spain etc etc! They are just coming to realise on the Continent that they haven't a clue how to get out of their mess.

The problem is that, given time, Europe could have gradually become more integrated, more connected with each other, but, instead, dysfunctional power hungry political bureaucrats have forced the pace, keeping so much secret, and not bothering about what every successful country managed to do: have democracy (which isn't just voting - and ignoring the result :) ), obeying the rule of law, including the government itself, individual rights including property rights, and defence of the country from alien forces.

If those are missing, you might as well go to Venezuela, they don't even have toilet paper!

These deficiencies are causing havoc across Europe, even if the BBC doesn't broadcast it.

Jun 25, 2016 at 11:15 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

I am surprised that J-C Juncker hasn't been told where to go, with his recent harassing of our Government.

The referendum is an internal matter for the British. Until the Government make a relevant statement, like invoke Article 50, it has nothing to do with the EU. He and his comrades should keep out of things that are his not their business. Rushing others again! We might not even invoke Article 50, so little has been thought through.

It is confusing because Cameron thought he was going to win the vote and nothing was sufficiently prepared for negotiating a Brexit. He thought there wasn't going to be a referendum, because he expected he could blame the LibDems for being unable to fulfil his election promise, but he won the last election outright!

Jun 25, 2016 at 11:48 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

Alan kendall on Jun 25, 2016 at 4:45 PM
"My granddaughter feels she belongs to Europe. She wants to be European before being a UK citizen."

Does your daughter know that Britain helped the nations in her empire become independent, as did the other European nations with colonies?

Does she understand why those nations wanted to be independent?

They would have suffered much less material discomfort if they had just stayed in the empire and done as they were told?

Jun 25, 2016 at 11:59 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

The pfennig has dropped, Merkel has realised that the British public have had enough:
Express:
Angela Merkel insists 'no need to be nasty' to Britain as Juncker gives UK marching orders

GERMAN chancellor Angela Merkel has insisted there is "no need to be nasty" to Britain hours after Jean-Claude Juncker ordered the UK to leave the European Union as soon as possible.

Jun 26, 2016 at 12:08 AM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

We are leaving the EU, not Europe.

Jun 26, 2016 at 12:09 AM | Registered CommenterBreath of Fresh Air

Robert Christopher, Juncker has been the lastest EU unelected official to abuse his position to abuse the UK, for the greater good of his own ego and pension. He shouldn't get all the discredit, for what he has helped destroy.

His name ought to be on the Memorial marking where the EU Visitor Centre used to be.

Jun 26, 2016 at 12:13 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

The EU has a mega, maybe insurmountable problem. Almost every member country recognises the need for fundamental reform of the union but they have no democratic structure in place by which change could be effected. And to complicate issues further they have no democratic mechanism that allows an introduction of such a structure.

Jun 26, 2016 at 12:26 AM | Registered CommenterGreen Sand

Green Sand, not so much a Puppet Government, as a Muppet Dictatorship, only they are not stupid, just supremely arrogant, about their assumed Supremacy.

At least Merkel has shown some realisation of where this may lead, but anti-EU sentiments are running quite high in Germany at the moment, as Germany realises that they either bail out themselves, or continue to bail out everyone else.

Jun 26, 2016 at 1:09 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Does anyone think that practically things won't change that much? I would expect we would go for something like EEA rules that apply for Switzerland and Liechtenstein.

ie https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_workers_in_the_European_Union

"Switzerland initially granted freedom of movement to EEA citizens in 2005-2011. It briefly reimposed restrictions in 2012-2013, but lifted them again in 2014. However, as a result of the popular initiative "Against mass immigration", Switzerland is scheduled to impose permanent quotas on residence/work permits for citizens of all EEA countries except Liechtenstein, starting from 2017 at the latest.[25][26][27]"

As regards things like the Irish border how do we currently deal with non EU citizens alowed into the Republic? I assume we have some agreement with the government there as they can freely cross over into the UK. I am sure we can come to some kind of agreement there anyway.

Jun 26, 2016 at 1:28 AM | Unregistered CommenterRob Burton

Robert Christopher. 11.59pm. If my GRANDdaughter (not daughter) ever asked, I would tell her about the independence movements in our former colonies and how they were ruthlessly suppressed by our "benevolent" governments. I will not try to rewrite history as you seem to be doing.

If you, and others who have agreed with you, think that our high schools are peddling set political messages think again. If my granddaughter and her friends are typical, they seem to learn most and form their opinions primarily by discussion and argument, both in and out of school. They seem very resistant to being preached at. They are angry and confused at the Referendum result and are further confused by the reactions of their EU friends on social media who don't understand either. When we attempted to explain that in this country you have to accept the will of the majority and that is what democracy is all about, she retorted that a wrong decision, however made, is still wrong. I've never been more proud of her. At her young age she already recognizes the problems with the democratic system. Unfortunately many of her kind will learn a wrong lesson from this, that it's pointless to vote.

Xenophobia won you your result, not high lofty ideas about democracy and sovereignty as you like to portray (note very carefully indeed, I am not calling into question YOUR own motives). I have not argued this with my granddaughter, there would be no point, she doesn't respect any of my views - typical teenager! At the moment we're not even speaking, but I'm still immensely proud of her. So do not PRESUME to put your own interpretations on why she is mightily affronted at what happened last week.

Jun 26, 2016 at 6:18 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

My reaction to the statements issued after the meeting of the six founding countries (note NOT the EU) is who the f**k do they think they are? If I were someone from a different EU country I would wonder why being a founder nation gives them special status (Lichtenstein with special status?!?!). Do they really think that because the British public has decided to withdraw, that we are not still a fully paid up member with all the dignity that that confers?

I can understand many of the reasons behind wanting to be shot of us, but equally believe they are fully aware of what resentments those statements would cause in the UK. Under normal circumstances these matters would be handled behind closed doors, so there must be a reason for acting the way they have. Further resentment here would be counterproductive, so I speculate that the messages were for home consumption, to make their citizens resent the UK's "stalling" tactics and so, in some complicated way, stall demands from their own eurosceptic parties (but would Lichtenstein even have room for one?). Clearly Merkel did not agree.

Jun 26, 2016 at 6:45 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall

Alan Kendall 6:45 agreed. They are posturing for domestic political reasons.

That is what Mrs Thatcher was accused of doing to protect British interests, and what President de Gaulle was previously accused of doing to keep Britain out.

Perhaps Cameron did not grovel enough to satisfy Juncker.

Jun 26, 2016 at 7:16 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

golf charlie
I know you're no fan of the BBC sometimes there is interesting stuff on their website and even their broadcast news. I found this article by MArk Mardell very interesting, Brexit: The story of an island apart, worth reading with an open mind (not that you haven't got one)

It also underscores a real frustration with the British that has been growing. Many in Europe think we've won.

This is a view expressed by our French neighbour in the days before he had a stroke.

Anyway I hope you find it interesting.

Is Hillary Benn the first sign of a realignment in British politics or is he just someone who made his move too early?

Jun 26, 2016 at 7:42 AM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS