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Discussion > Are BHers out to kill the BBC ?

"I'll leave you to your fantasy of believing you belong to a majority position regarding climate change"
When did I say that ?

so that sounds like "slithering around logic" to me

"shouting match with insults"..I see none of that at 8:32 AM
I said "he thinks that television news is the pulse of the nation" and then I gave evidence to show it isn't.

I'm not challenging you personally, I just challenge arguments.

Apr 21, 2016 at 10:06 AM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

I have something to illustrate that some people get in a silo, and assume they and friends OPINIONS are received wisdom.
Yesterday on Facebook I replied to someone

My reply : "Strange how these days a lot people of people from the political left seem full of hate and insults."

Their reply : "I don't think there was anything right- or left-wing about what we're talking about here, unless expecting women to behave like Doris Day in a 50s movie is right-wing?"

They'd actually begun the post with this first line:
"Edwina Currie is fast becoming the BBC female equivalent of that other past-his-sell-by-date Tory politician, Nigel Lawson"

Well to me thta's seeming to express hate towards Tories
#1 They introduced the political party.
and #2 put used a pejorative before it
...... "past-his-sell-by-date Tory politician"
...and THEY did not see that "there was anything right- or left-wing about what we're talking about" ...bizarre

The silo commenters - seemed to have real anger and think that my mild challenging was the nasty thing.
- To me it seemed it's not that my arguments that upset them,
............it was just I had DARED not to agree with them....'shouldn't everyone just agree'

And as ever they tried the run-away tactic " I find it quite astonishing that you are still chasing this… it's a new day"
..............(Well they had just posted 4 new comments for me to reply to)

Apr 21, 2016 at 10:29 AM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

stewgreen, There is too much hate and bile on the internet to make any comparison with political leanings.

For a start, Left and Right are not the only political axes.

But also, with such an abundance of disappointing behaviour to observe, it's easy to create infinite epicycles of spurious correlations.

Apr 21, 2016 at 11:01 AM | Registered CommenterM Courtney

Apr 21, 2016 at 6:02 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

Martin A. Goal posts stationary.
If you, on the other hand, shift goalposts now to debate BBC funding that's a different matter. Debate away stewgreen but always remind us that you don't watch and haven't paid any licence fee.

Er, I don't think I am shifting goalposts by mentioning the licence fee. I had already said that my views are partly conditoned by the experience of having the BBC's mafiosi arrive on my doorstep as a non licence fee payer.

Consider the fee you pay more like a vehicle road tax. If you don't drive you don't pay. Simples!

You think it's simple? It's not the same thing.

And I don't get the analogy with childless people paying for education - they were educated themselves and every moment they benefit from the result of education - whether it's opening a packet of cornflakes or getting an MRI scan at the local hospital. The existence and continuation of the state depend on education.

I'd like to see the end of the BBC but I am no more out to destroy it than the mice in the field behind my house are out to destroy my cats. Various people including me are victims of it but there is nothing I can do about that beyond not watching TV and having the occassional grumble on BH.

Apr 21, 2016 at 11:23 AM | Registered CommenterMartin A

Have yourself a nice new day Stewgreen.

I wonder if you can twist this, or perhaps you can convince yourself you said it, and I didn't.

Good luck with that.

Apr 21, 2016 at 11:26 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

Alan Kendall
I watch National and East Midlands News on BBC and ITV and French News on BFMTV. Although both UK National News and BFMTV are capital centric BFMTV does seem to me to get round the country more than either the BBC or ITV. It could be my natural prejudices that makes me think that

With regard to not watching/witnessing things and events disqualifying comment have you really thought that through? Not worked in hospital, not worked in a factory,, not worked in a call centre, never been to a football match, never been to a gay bar and so on and so on. Disqualifies most politicians talking about and legislating for most things, probably a good thing and I recommend it to the house.

Apr 21, 2016 at 11:28 AM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

Alan Kendall
Should also have said it would kill phone-ins, Question Time, Daily Politics and do Andrew Marr and the Dimblebeys out of a job, also a good thing

Apr 21, 2016 at 11:31 AM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

Martin A. My dispute was with Stewgreen, not with what you said.

1) surely your dispute with the plod did not involve the BBC? Presumably they were acting on the government's behalf, believing you were breaking the law.

2) just saying its not the same thing is not acceptable. I believe I gave reasons to believe they were similar.

3) I believe you are arguing my point about education. I was arguing that those who believe childless people should not pay for education ARE WRONG. The analogy I was making is with people who argue similarly that they don't derive any benefit from government spending (not licence fees) on the BBC, so why should they be forced to pay..

I suppose it would only be polite to ask why you are a victim of the BBC.

Apr 21, 2016 at 11:59 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

@M Courtney I know what you mean left vs right is too naive a shorthand to get into.
But in that particular Facebook example the initiator set the tone by linking Tories with a perjorative, so that indicates that THEY themselves are not "right" so a lefty

..however that doesn't mean that all Lefties behave with this new intolerance that some Lefties/Progreesives/"right-on-er" seemed to have borrowed from the old style political far right.
...Perfectly OK for a person to have left, right, green whatever views as long as they behave OK.

Apr 21, 2016 at 12:08 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

SANDYS. my goodness, so much anger, so much hate. You don't have to watch or listen you know. Is it just the BBC (and Guardian?) you object to or are people employed elsewhere in the media also included?

I have my own dislikes but I don't make a thing about it. I just switch them off, or if the better half wants them I move out of earshot.

Apr 21, 2016 at 12:11 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

Sandy S. As to contributing to a debate where I have no personal experience, no I wouldn't.

Good politicians are chosen for their abilities to absorb information and advice and make informed decisions.

Another profession that seems at first sight to break my "rule" is journalism. Journalists, however, should also either experience what they write about first hand, or like politicians, be information gatherers with good judgement (amongst other attributes).

Apr 21, 2016 at 12:30 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

when two tribes go to war

Apr 21, 2016 at 1:33 PM | Unregistered CommenterEternalOptimist

Alan Kendall "SANDYS. my goodness, so much anger, so much hate. You don't have to watch or listen you know. Is it just the BBC (and Guardian?) you object to or are people employed elsewhere in the media also included?

I have my own dislikes but I don't make a thing about it. I just switch them off, or if the better half wants them I move out of earshot."

So what's stopping you doing the same here? The BBC says what you mostly want to hear, but here your delicate sensibilities are hurt by our anti BBC feeling. Welcome to our world. It's annoying to see people droning on about their pet peeves and not seeing your point of view ever, isn't it. The difference is we have to pay for it. Think how much more annoyed you'd be if you have to pay to read our opinions or get pestered or fined if you didn't.

Apr 21, 2016 at 2:08 PM | Unregistered CommenterTinyCO2

Martin A. (...)

1) surely your dispute with the plod did not involve the BBC? Presumably they were acting on the government's behalf, believing you were breaking the law.

Apr 21, 2016 at 11:59 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

Alan - it was not "my dispute with the plod" as you put it. It was the BBC or a company employed by them to do so who sent the two gorrillas with a search warrant. It was not the cops who applied for the search warrant.


The gorrillas, armed with their search warrant were sent by "TV Licensing Regional Centre South West, Concept 2000, 250 Farnborough Road, Farnborough, GU14 7LW" and were under its direct (via telephone) control. I presume the copper was there to arrest me in the case of my not complying with the search warrant.

From their website:

'TV Licensing' is a trade mark of the BBC and is used under licence by companies contracted by the BBC to administer the collection of the television licence fees and enforcement of the television licensing system. The BBC is a public authority in respect of its television licensing functions and retains overall responsibility.

So the BBC explicitly acknowledges responsibility for what transpired.

(more later)

Apr 21, 2016 at 2:13 PM | Registered CommenterMartin A

Seriously Alan, consider if the BBC spouted the stuff we're coming out with, every day. Imagine it woven into every drama and comedy and news programme. You can't switch off because you never know when it will pop up. You complain and get ignored. You complain harder and they investigate and having asked themselves 'am I biased', reply 'no, just the opposite'. They even commission an external investigation - stocked with like mineded people who find them unbiased as saints. Rather than taking your concerns seriously, they make out that your problems are your own and you're a very small minority. People like us say 'well you don't have to watch, just turn off'. Can't you imagine how angry you'd be by now?

Apr 21, 2016 at 2:41 PM | Unregistered CommenterTinyCO2

Martin A is the TV licencing part of the BBC?

Apr 21, 2016 at 2:43 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

Tinyco2 will be taking your good advice. Pleased to confirm my suspicion that you opperate as a clique, driving away those you disagree with.

Apr 21, 2016 at 2:45 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

So I'm right to want to shut the BBC down. Good Alan. I'm glad you agree.

Apr 21, 2016 at 2:55 PM | Unregistered CommenterTinyCO2

Martin A is the TV licencing part of the BBC?

Alan - please re-read what it says.

'TV Licensing' is a trade mark of the BBC and is used under licence by companies contracted by the BBC to administer the collection of the television licence fees and enforcement of the television licensing system. The BBC is a public authority in respect of its television licensing functions and retains overall responsibility.

'TV Licensing' consists of companies to which the BBC outsources the dirty work but which operate under its direct control and for whose operation it accepts responsibility. So it is the BBC which "administers the collection of the television licence fees and enforces the television licensing system". Not the police. Not the government.

Apr 21, 2016 at 2:59 PM | Registered CommenterMartin A

@TinyCO2 made some good points I agree with
I don't think anyone should ever feel intimidated about expressing any honest opinion.
..( Like fear of being callled a clique.)

I am not talking about Alan, but my recent FB experience, it was a phenomenon I have seen before that they can say whatever they like however needlessly offensive,BUT if you challenge them they take offense and you are the bad guy.
I call this bullying by taking offense.

Apr 21, 2016 at 3:06 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Thanks stewgreen. Though to be fair we are a clique, albeit with quite differing levels of feeling about the issue. Alan misses the point that the BBC is also a clique for the two powerful reasons I outlined before. Alan doesn't mind that clique because he's part of it. He's fed up with us after a very short time. He should try it for a few decades before he judges us.

Apr 21, 2016 at 3:44 PM | Unregistered CommenterTinyCO2

@TinyCO2 Yes again good point.
We are not a clique though.. we welcome outsiders, disagree sometimes with each other and call bad logic out, and do know to tackle the argument not the man.
Got no problem with some green things eg If a corp can build a hydro plant , obey the laws then go for it ..fine

Yes you could say to the BBC "you operate as a clique, driving away those you disagree with."
...You can count that by their funding black hole as less people buy a licence.

Apr 21, 2016 at 4:06 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Tiny whatever,

of what clique do you think I belong to? The BBC? don't be daft.

Apr 21, 2016 at 4:18 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

Martin A.

I concede. I was unaware of the facts.

I would have thought that TV Licencing would have to have proof you were operating a TV before they can act. However, I haven't seen those little be-aerialed vans for decades.

Apr 21, 2016 at 4:27 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

@Alan
you will probably never see those vans again.

The way a telly used to work was by mixing a frequency with the signal to produce a constant frequency to the CRT. This was the intermediate frequency (10khz IIRC)

the detector van detected the mixer signal that the telly produced, so they know which channel you were tuned to. They could even triangulate which room the telly was in.

In the days of cable, satellite , PC's and phones, those vans are probably useless

Apr 21, 2016 at 4:42 PM | Unregistered CommenterEternalOptimist