Bishop Hill Intelligence Squared debate
Oct 1, 2011 Climate: WG3 This looks like it will be fun. I don't think I'll make it unfortunately:
If a windmill is about to blight your cherished view of the green English countryside, you might start to wonder why on earth the Department for Energy and Climate Change thinks it is a good idea to subsidise the monsters at vast cost to the British taxpayer. Why not retune some boilers in Guangdong instead? Or encourage the booming cities of China to power themselves with gas, not coal? There’s a whole raft of practical, carbon-saving steps which can be more cheaply achieved in the growing, bustling emerging world. After all, a ton of carbon saved in China is as good in global terms as a ton saved in the UK. So why ever spoil our green and pleasant land?
Hang on, though. Wasn’t the “green new deal” all about creating jobs in a new sort of economy? Making Britain a leader in an industry of the future? Not to mention making us just a little less dependent for our energy on geopolitically unstable regions of the world. Make China the focus of all our policy effort, and it will be China that reaps the knock-on benefits. Why would we realistically agree to that?
So who is right? Join us on October 20th 2011 at the Royal Society to find out.
The speakers include George Monbiot.
Reader Comments (64)
GrantB
Given your desire to protect the bird wildlife of Australia, have you thought of shooting a windmill? Probably do a good deal more good.
And that is a panther -- house cats rarely get over 30 pounds and only if grossly obese. And are certainly obese when they reach 20 pounds. Feral house cats rarely get over 10 pounds -- if any heavier they would be too fat to catch anything. And they sure as hell aren't 6 feet long like the one you posted.
Such animals have been reported in the UK over the years, but never caught to my knowledge. It is thought that they were someone's exotic pet gone wild. Probably the case with you cite as well.
UK BIGCATS
There are native panthers in the US, most notably in Florida. They are actually cougars with a black coat -- a normal genetic variation.
I have all sorts of "feral" cats in my back yard. I have seen a cougar about the size of your "feral cat" in my back yard more than once, as well as several bobcats, which are much smaller. However, I only had one deer killed in my backyard in the ten years I lived here in the Sierras. I watched it. Two dogs did it. Both had collars and tags. Should I shoot the dogs too? I mean they were destroying fauna.
I might add that in the US in most states it is permissible for farmers to shoot dogs that are "worrying" life stock, and I assume the same in true down under.
Some people, with reason, see the doubling of Oz coal exports while cutting back our own domestic use of coal IOT save the planet as ever so slightly hypocritical. Uranium is another matter. We barely use it. We have 25% of the world's known reserves and actively export it. There's not much discussion here on where it goes or what its used for. Some say its used to produce clean, reliable, relatively cheap, base load electical power in other countries. But that can't be right, otherwise we would use it ourselves.
We also have by some estimates, 25% of the world's thorium reserves. Some say it may also be able to produce clean, reliable, relatively cheap, base load electical power in the future. But it's doubtful if we will ever mine any of it if the word "nuclear" raises its unclean and ugly head. Besides I'm sure the Greens will discover that mining it may disturb the habitat of the lesser, spotted, toad eating quoll.
DPdelS - Yes, the Gippsland feral cat remains a mystery and is perhaps a cryptid. DNA tests by Monash university did show that it was indeed a feral cat (can't find a link). Other theories suggest that the US military had pumas as mascots in Melbourne during WW2 and they were released/escaped.
Maybe that's more plausible and is of course the fall back position down here. If in doubt, blame the yanks.
We are already paying for both wind turbines here and cleaner development elsewhere - taxes and renewable obligations on our energy bills, international development aid and clean development mechanism funding.
What more do these people want? Is there a limit to how much of our productivity they wish to steal?
On a different matter; why do they paint turbines in such a bright colour? They could make a better effort at matching the landscape and sky. Making them less obvious from the ground would still allow them to be obvious to pilots.
BBD - "Side note: bird mortality is a non-argument against wind. Cats kill millions of birds, and every renewables booster with half a brain will throw this fact right back at you."
Are large birds killed by cats?
Re the RSPB: I wonder if big wind donates to them, it's unlikely fake charities give endorsements for free.
Maybe the RSPB sees the turbine culling as a solution to the Red Kite problem they created.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-13614326
GrantB "My neighbours cat used to delight (blah blah). So I got out the .22 and shot the big, fat useless thing."
Is killing your neighbour's cat legal?
I imagine you did not have the courage to tell your neighbour you had killed their pet, so leqving them wondering what had happened to their household pet. Am I right?
REPLY to
just like nuclear has potential if we we were to redesign that industry from scrathc and build safer much smaller plants. Herman Cain's credo works: "if it does not work, throw it away and start all over again"
Oct 1, 2011 at 10:01 PM | tutut
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And the list of significant problems with present-day nuclear is?
a. they are too big
b. everything else, but I can't think of it
Martin A - "I imagine you did not have the courage to tell your neighbour you had killed their pet, so leqving them wondering what had happened to their household pet. Am I right?"
No you are totally wrong. I told her six months before that her cat was killing native birds in my yard and asked her if she could keep her cat in her yard or indoors. No she said, that's just a natural thing with cats. The killing continued. I then asked her, if as responsible cat owners do, she would attach a collar and bell to her cat so that birds would be allerted to approaching danger. No again. The killings and maimings continued. I then told her if I saw her cat killing or brutally maiming any more birds around my bird feeding and watering area, I would shoot it. She said she would report me to the RSPCA and the police, but still the cat continued. So I shot it and I told her immediately that I had done so.
The police were called and advised me that I shouldn't discharge a firearm in an urban area, even in my own backyard. I have a gun licence and it's the first time I'd fired the thing in about 20 years, but fair enough, I probably should have been taken to court. I wasn't however. There was no mention of the illegality of cat shooting. I never was approached by the RSPCA.
My neighbour has a new cat and kennels it out when she goes on her protests about proposed new dams and any form of mining. Fine, I don't dislike cats as urban pets and I don't care if she has a hundred, as long as they stay at home and don't kill our native birds. I've told her the same will happen if they do and I really don't give a toss about the cosequences. I believe she understands. My parrots, finches and kookaburras are safe and in fine form, I'm sure you will be pleased to know.
From the cloak of a pseudonym you suggest a lack of courage on my part. I believe I was up front and honest throughout. I can't comment on my lack of courage or otherwise although I might suggest that both my father and his navigator had a shite load more of it than either of us.
[snip]
While THIS looks like a wasted effort, I believe IQ2 to be an American export. There may be interest in other debates, like here.
But above all, consider the first IQ2 debate I'm familiar with, from March 2007 in New York City, Global Warming is not a Crisis.
Notice the lineup:
FOR THE MOTION
Michael Crichton
Richard S. Lindzen
Philip Stott
AGAINST THE MOTION
Brenda Ekwurzel
Gavin Schmidt
Richard C.J. Somerville
AND the results:
Pre-Debate Poll Results
30% For | 57% Against | 13%
Post Debate Poll Results
46% For | 42% Against | 12%
I listened again to this debate recently. What was amusing was to hear the snickers and chortles from the AGAINST side when Stott touched on Svensmark's cosmogenesis hypothesis, as well as when Lindzen mentioned certain of his empirical ideas.
CAGW-people are smug. OR they used to be - much more so.
George Monbiot speaking in a debate with the word "intelligence" in its title doesn't make any sense to me.
GrantB
Kill someone's pet by discharging a firearm in a residential area as you say you did will get you into a great deal of trouble in the US, UK, Ireland and many other places for a number of reasons.
I watched two "pet" dogs take down a deer in my back yard (I live in a rural area) but was unable to do anything about it because it was also a "residential area" and knew what would happen if I shot them.
And even if it were legal I wouldn't have done it anyhow because the last thing I want to do is kill somebody by accident. 22's kill more people than you might suspect. You were let off far too easily. What you did was goddamn dangerous. And I might add that even at age 70, I still have no problem hitting the "x" ring at 100 yards with a rifle and at 25 yards with one of my pistols. Bullets are know to ricochet, even when backstopped by earthen berms and cement walls.
What really bothers me is your statement I have a gun licence and it's the first time I'd fired the thing in about 20 years. Let's see, shooting at a moving target in a residential area without any practice for 20 years, and god knows what has happened to your eyesight in the interim. Good show.
Martin A
Are large birds killed by cats?
The reality is cats are killed daily by large birds, particularly the large owls and eagles. Both take rabbits and other game in the under 10 pound range. I once saw a Great Horn Owl (on of the largest) pick off a neighbor's cat in his front yard at sunset. This happened near Silicon Valley in California, not exactly the back woods at all.
Heh, thanks all. I'm pretty sure I got the idea from Josh or fenbeagle.
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Thanks, Don Pablo - you made exactly the point I would have done. The birds damaged by windmills are not the birds predated by domestic cats. Ours seem to prefer mice, and catch at least two every night, as well as the occasional young rat.