Monday
May162016
by 
Josh
Josh EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie
May 16, 2016 Brexit Whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver the film by Martin Durkin, which came out last week, is well worth watching - it's funny, entertaining and challenging.
You can also watch on Vimeo.
Reader Comments (93)
An excellent film with an excellent list of sponsors as well!
Other than those making a career of it and in it, I struggle to see why anyone would want us to remain in such an organisation. It seems likely to be well into self-destruction thanks in part to the unilateral contra-democratic contra-cooperative high-handedness of Ms Merkel. Even past enthusiasts might see advantage in leaving in an orderly fashion before a complete shambles makes that decision irrelevant. I shall try, however, to watch the film with an open mind.
All the time I'm seeing Remainers argue that if Britain leaves then the remaining EU citizens will have to pay significant tariffs on British goods (they phrase it in such a way as to make it appear a problem for British exporters of course.)
In reality 'stay in the EU or the remaining citizens will suffer' is their threat.
What they are describing is nothing less than a protection racket, run for the benefit of the political elite and organised rent-seekers. It is no different from Mafia activity.
Why would anyone voluntarily subject themself to such thuggery and robbery?
Oh what a shame. I was hoping the blog would remain a relatively brexit-remain free zone, and such matters be confined to the discussion threads (where they belong and where I can ignore them). Now even more to ignore.
Rather cruel Josh?
[self-snipped - wrong thread]
May 16, 2016 at 11:07 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall
Alan, it is a political blog. I've not been in the UK for a while but I really havent seen any proper discussion of pros and cons of the decision on any website, not that I look that hard. Has the UK media done lots of impartial coverage to help me decide? it is quite an important decision.
I'm probably a slight leaver unless this would hammer Sterling in which case my for my own selfish reasons I could be tempted to switch sides :-)
You have a choice. You can be in the American controlled EU or you can be in an American controlled UK outside the EU. It's how empires work. Obama has intervened several times in this to remind us who's boss. The big bosses are of course American ratings agencies.
Put your house, mortgage and mother in law on staying in.
Rob Burton. Maybe, but that doesn't mean I can't have regrets.
I can't wait until the votes are in and the fuss has died down (maybe August?).
I think my vote will largely be decided by the people supporting each side and, to date, I am more impressed by the remain camp although I wish they wouldn't keep ramping up the fear card. I note the brexiteers are now also playing it.
I remain undecided yet, but if anyone else suggests doom if we leave then I might be pushed to put it to the test.
France's rendezvous with history
De Gaulle saw in British membership the Trojan Horse of American imperialism in Europe. After Algeria won its independence from France in the early 1960s, de Gaulle was fond of saying that he had not granted freedom to one country only to sit by and watch France lose its independence to the Americans.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7942086.stm
Oh what a shame. I was hoping the prime minister would run a fair debate about the issues rather than cheating on every front. Sorry Alan Kendall, Remain can't have everything their own way.
Subtle though your rebuke is, I suggest you keep your opinions of what others can or cannot post to yourself. You could instead have commented on what was good or bad about the video.
I liked the beggining and the end but the middle was a bit heavy on the pre and post war history. I can see why it was there - to show how regulation stagnates growth but it was still a bit long for the sort of people that it most needs to convince. It was right for the elites who watch long documentaries on history, but I suspect that group has already decided one way or the other. The bit with the number of regulations for every part of the morning routine was inspired.
@Rob Burton: I wouldn't bother with newspapers or TV (or Vote Leave); they are all devoid of facts. Scares aplenty but no facts.
You might try the Norths for facts -
Richard North
Pete North
The EU is a racket, first & foremost, nothing more nothing less. The "yoof 'o tuday" will most likely vote to stay, they are by far the most gullible & naive in our population, left-leaning, anti-establishment, (cheap hiloidays & mobile phone calls easily sway them), rebellious, etc. & hypocritical with it! For them the EU talks the talk, about equality & fairness to all citizens, but they cannot see what it really is that they are voting for! They have been brainwashed about British imperialism & empire through our education system for donkey's years, making us feel guilty about our history, makng the EU look good, but it is only superficially surface based! I renewed my voting status on the Electortal Register for one reason only, & if the right result occurs, I will continue to vote in General Elections, if it doesn't, then what's the point of voting?
If you want to see Richard North on YouTube (with Christohpher Booker of the Telegraph) try this - FLEXCIT
Shame Durkin couldn't get George Galloway on there.
Unfortunatley we need him.
Jamspid
The left have always opposed EU membership. Even the faux left Labour party. That includes Corbvn. There is no left, left to oppose it.
"In 1975, Labour held a special conference on British membership and the party voted 2 to 1 for Britain to leave the European Communities. In 1979, the Labour manifesto declared that a Labour government would "oppose any move towards turning the Community into a federation" and, in 1983, it still favoured British withdrawal from the EEC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_United_Kingdom#From_1975_to_1997
BREXIT - THE SCARY FACTS
Tinyco2. No rebuke, merely a sadness that a the whole of a rather good blogsite is being "contaminated" by europolitics. A debate already being played out in the discussion threads where, as far as I can tell, its pointless, no one being influenced by any other to change their opinions.
I believe that I am allowed to give my opinion here. I'm not attempting to influence anyone (you are all too set in your ways), unlike yourself with your encouragement to view a political, spin-doctored film (sorry my opinions again).
Twas a political website first, dealing with constitutional and freedom issues rather than party tribal stuff. This is a perfectly appropriate topic. I'd like it if remainers were to say whether they watched the film. I assume leavers have.
I'd also like it if leavers could make any kind of a positive case.
If they say the film is propaganda and spin, tell me where the lies are. I have no difficulty with detecting the lies in remain output. Absent the lies and the scares, what else is there?
Rhoda.
"Absent the lies and scares..."
What else is there in politics, any politics?
Alan the Brit. You seem to be saying (12.10pm) that younger voters, for various stupid reasons, will probably vote the wrong way. If they do and, as a result, the wrong result is obtained in the referendum, you won't vote again. You also imply that you didn't vote previously.
Just why are you voting, perhaps to preserve your democratic rights against the unconstitutional EU (who somehow deny you a vote)?
I'm guessing the 'don't know's will win again.
The stay leave/remain vote may become irrelevant. I can't see the EU lasting much longer with the migrant/Euro crises hanging round it's ears.
Morph -Anglina Jolie puts her oar in
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3592880/Angelina-Jolie-blasts-EU-race-bottom-response-refugee-crisis-sends-message-British-voters-reject-Brexit-gives-BBC-lecture.html
Mandelson's presence confirms criminal character of the EU.
'On 22 November 2004 Peter Mandelson became Britain's European Commissioner, taking the trade portfolio.
On 22 April 2005 The Times revealed that Mandelson had spent the previous New Year's Eve on the yacht of Paul Allen, the co-founder of Microsoft, which was at the centre of a major EU investigation, although it did not allege impropriety.'
In October 2008 Mandelson was reported to have maintained private contacts over several years with Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska, most recently on holiday in August 2008 on Deripaska's yacht at Taverna Agni on the Greek island of Corfu.[44] News of the contacts sparked criticism because, as European Union Trade Commissioner, Mandelson had been responsible for two decisions to cut aluminium tariffs that had benefited Deripaska's United Company RusAl
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Mandelson#European_Commissioner
JamesG.
I'm guessing the "don't cares" will win.
I'm also guessing that, if the non-voters outnumber those that do, supporters of the losing side will argue the result undemocratic (not supported by a majority).
Whatever happens there will be trumphalists and cry babies.
I'd go on Paul Allen's yacht. He's one of the good billionaires.
Microsoft used to get in all sorts of trouble with the EU until they got on board with it, opening a lobbying office in Brussels and becoming part of the stitch-up. It's google who are in line now for a punishment beating. I assume Apple, far more exclusive and tied-in, have a lobbyist.
Mandelson is such a crook he'd misbehave in any environment. He throve in the EU.
@Alan Kendall: I haven't bothered to vote for years in UK General Elections not for the silly reason you imply that the EU has mysteriously denied me a vote. I chose not to vote because we are governed by the EU Commission, a bunch of overpaid £100k/year (plus a huge expense account) lazy good for nothing bastards, who are un-elected, un-democratic (except among themselves), un-accountable, & lastly un-sackable! To vote in the UK GE would be pointless as the end result is the same, more power to the EU! The UK government is merely reduced to an unit for administration purposes to administer EU regulations! The EU COmmission is in charge of everything yet rewsponsible for nothing, the PIP breast implant scandall & the horsemeat scandall demonstrate that amply, & it was in fact individual member states that resolved the issues in the end, the Commission was powerless & ruddlerless!
Alan the Brit.
I never implied that the EU had deprived you of your vote. You appear to have done this voluntarily.
I was perplexed that you did not vote but would wish to brexit, presumably because he EU made decisions that you were not allowed to vote upon. I find this strange.
Jamspid busts the BBC about sensationalist weather reporting yet again.
Inbetween the headlines about Leicester City triumphant open top bus parade and Sinead O Connor disapearing act
Headline on BBC News Channel press the Red Button
"April was the seventh month in a row to break temperature records"says NASA
However when you get to page 2
"BUT in terms of its departure from the 1951 1980 temperature average it was equal to January 2016"
So actually this April and this January are only equal to 1951 ish
Phone it in and complain.Its a non story.
Telephone number for the BBC Trust is 0370013100 and chew their poor telephone operators ear off as I just have.
For an active and reasonably informed forum debate see:
ARRSE - Combined EU Referendum thread
Join and contribute to the debate.
P
Rhoda
You live in Texas, you have a constitution (actually written down) which gives you all the things the vote leave side (that is my side) are fighting for. You asked for a positive case, the case is that freedom and democracy have no price and we want them back so now get back to your washing up woman ^.^.
Pcar
I have been following it but it is hard work ^.^
FOR OTHERS please not that ARRSE is a 'forces' blog and to be honest you would struggle to find more intelligent and objective comments anywhere else. The problem is the number of posts each day and therefore keeping up hehe
Dung, mea culpa. I meant remain and wrote leave, for it is remain who cannot make a positive case. Texas and the US do indeed have constitutions. I can't vote here, but a recent local election asked the voters what they wanted to spend, $63 million for a HIGH SCHOOL football stadium or not. That doesn't happen in Oxfordshire.
Anyhow, I'm only here for a while, I'll be back to post-referendum and hopefully post-brexit UK. I'm getting a postal vote. I hope I can resolve my problem with confusing remain and leave by then.
In a way it's almost a pity that there is literally nothing positive whatsoever that can be said for the UK remaining in the EU prison camp of nations. If the Remainiacs could point to any positives in EU membership then it might be possible to have a sensible public debate on the issue of Brexit. As the case for getting away as soon as possible from the whole sick sorry mess that is this evil marxoid empire is so overwhelming they are reduced to relying on frantic scaremongering (Project Fear). Funny that the BBC itself doesn't see that it has completely lost the plot when it has to resort to trotting out luvvies, i.e. the Jolie girl, to lecture us. Looks as though starving herself to please her Hollyweird employers could have affected her grey matter, if she had any to begin with.
Martin Reed
The Remain side have been ramming economic disaster down our throats simply because they realise that the freedom and democracy issues will destroy them if they try to argue on those issues.
Alan Kendall, You mentioned at the beginning "Oh what a shame" that you wanted to "ignore" this topic yet still keep popping your head above the parapet every half an hour. What's the deal here? Do you want to ignore the subject or not?
I will be voting for Leave and will ignore your response. Unless it's a good one of course
While, from what the film showed, it would seem smart for the UK not to stay in the EU, free trade is not a simple answer.
What has happened in America is that manufacturing has been exported to countries with lower labor costs. Many expert professional jobs like engineering have been exported by telecommuting, that is really virtual immigration. The result is there are no longer sufficient well paid jobs and workers pay has not gone up for 30 years. Without enough paying customers the economy doesn't grow.
With robotics and AI the situation will only get worse. Companies no longer feel their workers are part of the family (if they ever did) and should share in the profits. They think ALL the money should go to the business owners and shareholders. The banks meanwhile skim off money from everyone. The financial sector (in the UK too) made 35% of GDP - for doing what? The top five banks now have 250 trillion dollars in hedge funds. As a result they influence politicians in a way that can be bad even for whole countries. eg Puerto Rico. A free market only works if the owners have some morals and too many don't. I see very difficult times ahead at a time when humanity should have their lives improved by modern manufacturing & farming.
@Dung, May 16, 2016 at 7:47 PM
Dung,
Thanks for confirmation of the intelligent & objective qualities of ARRSE Forum. Much apprciated. The intelligent & objective qualities extends to most threads on the forum, it is a goldmine of information.
I agree that the volume of daily posts on ARRSE - Combined EU Referendum thread is high. However, even if you can't read them all replying to even 1 with your views/facts is worthwhile.
Forces forum: yes, but non-forces/military are welcome - I'm there and did not confirm/deny whether I am current or former military.
Even if you initially join to only comment on Question Time totty, you will be welcome on other threads.
Look forward to debating with you all on ARRSE
P
Peter Crawford, I expressed regret that this topic, which is well represented elsewhere, now has yet another thread, in which no doubt the same old arguments and opinions will be rehashed. I never regretted the topic itself. By and large I have ignored contributing over the past week or so on this topic, because, in my opinion, there is little debate. Much of the topic is now represented by those supporting brexit who wish to ascribe to the EU everything bad in politics.
I tend to respond when people communicate with me (as I am doing now).
Won't hold my breath for any response, I'm sure its not up to your high standards.
The EU is not responsible for everything bad in politics, and I would disassociate myself from such a view if any on my side hold it. Not so much a straw man from AK as a possible misapprehension. I have no doubt that unless there are more changes than mere brexit, things will still go wrong for the UK from time to time. We are not going to be free from stupid dishonest misguided vain politicians if we leave the EU. We will be a little more able to use our votes to do something about it, which is the crux of the matter. We will be at least able to run a regime which favours our own people, which is illegal under the EU.
Alan K: "By and large I have ignored contributing over the past week or so on this topic."
Yes, OK; but please could you stop repeatedly telling us that you are ignoring contributing on this topic. Please let those who want to discuss it to do so without others trying to smother it.
I do not believe that many who want out of the EU are so naive as to believe it is the be all and end all of our political woes. Even if we were to escape we would still be lumbered with a bunch of politicos in the main parties of power who appear to be hell bent on reducing this land and its economy to a smoking ruin. That is before they finish the job off by returning us to the sixth century. Brexit would simply give us the slim chance to undo the many evils the EU has forced on us. We at least would remove one layer of entirely undemocratic interference in our affairs.
Is this forum is a proper place to discuss Brexit? This country will very soon cease to exist if Brexit fails so it is a game changer in every forum. But the EU is already responsible for 70 ~ 80% of our laws and many of those bear on energy use and production and are tied up with the AGW nonsense. That makes Brexit relevant here.
Is there a similar video giving the " remain's'" argument ?
Salopian.
Another love poem from your fair hand.
I am smothered by your usual warm embrace.
I wasn't aware that my meanderings caused so much disturbance to your karma and cannot even promise to desist, because that apparently causes you harm.
Discuss away.
May 17, 2016 at 5:52 AM Ross
BBC 24/7
Dr Richard North at EU Referendum has produced "Flexcit the movie", which is the Definitive EU Exit Plan, IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GliFMIHiGog
Alan Kendall
You are now firmly in troll territory on this thread; just in case it had slipped your notice.
"'Rhoda.
'Please Absent the lies and scares...
Please What else is there in politics, any politics?'" - Alan Kendall
That is really feeble. "They're all at it," so we may as well stick with the bent Belgians, rather than having politicians whom we can remove from office with our votes.
The catastrophic EU is extraordinarily relevant to all our most serious problems today, mainly because it is the cause of most of them. That applies to climate "science" above almost anything else. The endlessly disastrous DECC exists only because of the EU. It does not need to exist and, with our exit from the EU, it should be abolished.
The present government has repeatedly demonstrated a profound ignorance of the British Constitution. This lack of knowledge displays itself partly in treating laws, such as Labour's Climate Change Act, as sacrosanct, partly by assuming that its own laws are similarly immutable. The Conservatives exploited the notion, with the Fixed-term Parliament Act 2011. That cynical legislation may never be repealed, since it automatically favours any party in government, but a principled government would repeal it, right away.
The fact that such a government may never enter Whitehall is no reason to accept Alan Kendall's nihilism.
Dung, difficult to negotiate your self-defined territorial boundaries. Why is it that my gentle sarcasm is branded trollish, wheras someone calling Entropic Man a "pathetic, long-winded, execrable strumpet" on another thread, passes without comment from you or anyone else?
Could it just be true that, despite the oft-repeated claim of tolerance at this site, some of you do not welcome even the slightest dissent? Even to the extent of manufacturing dissent when it's not there.
Trol-de-rol, trol-de-rol. Roll out the Gruff Billies (have I spelt that right I wonder?)