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@GC, Aug 28, 2016

Cats and dogs do leave the domestic life, especially if abused.

When I was 4 our male poodle moved house. Took up residence 4 houses and a perpendicular road away with two old widowed sisters who pampered him. Dog preferred that to competing for attention with me and my younger brother.

In those bygone days, where we lived dogs were allowed to roam free like today's cats.


@SandyS, Aug 28, 2016 at 7:52

"Befriending" wild predators is rarely a good idea.

Although I have no personal experience, I have always understood that it's virtually impossible to tame an adult feral cat. Re-domesticating a stray is much easier, especially if the cat hasn't been abused. Cats are normally solitary predators so will not regard a human as a leader, merely a threat. I think domesticating foxes has the same problem, which is why it may take a few generations of feeding and breeding urban foxes before they become domesticated.

Cats are solitary, except lions. Dogs are pack animals, except foxes. Foxes have cat eyes.

Lions (as in Born Free and Lions On The Move) and are often happy to share life with humans and view them as leader.


@AK, Aug 28, 2016 at 8:36 AM

I remember seeing a programme about a russian experiment to domesticate wolves by selective breeding over many generations. It was not successful, wolves became slightly tamer but remained untrustworthy. They bred true for wildness. Occasionally however a pup would be born that had certain characteristics, I don't remember exactly but included distinctive colour markings on their coats and could be more easily tamed. They didn't behave like wolves and I believe the plan was to selectively breed these dog-wolves to see if they could produce dogs.

I suspect that attempts to produce domesticated foxes, as opposed to tame foxes, will fail unless, like wolves, foxes occasionally throw up sports that have less wildness in them.

I remember watching that too. In 1990's there was a fad for dog/wolf crosses. Didn't last long.

It suggests the domestic dog is a descendant of the frequent "mutant" wolves that attached to humans. Were they weak & submissive, or strong & intelligent and saw the advantages?

I favour the later as physically weaker dogs (eg Belgian & German Shepherd) worked to protect their masters' sheep.

It was enlightening watching our Malinois chasing a rabbit and looking for features to drive it towards so it became trapped. Quick shake and rabbit dead.

Amusingly, she trapped a grey squirrel once, it fought back and bit her nose drawing blood. Squirrel lived.

Aug 28, 2016 at 10:33 PM | Registered CommenterPcar

Ah! Animals, territory, domestication etc...

Barack Obama was right – UK will be back of the queue after Brexit, says US Ambassador

"The point was, you are at the front of the queue right now – he [Obama] was saying back in April – because we are doing this big trade deal with the European Union, [the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP)] of which you are a member.

“But if you step out of the front of the queue, by definition you are no longer at the front, and some notion that you can jump further ahead: you just want to say that is not the trend for the types of big deals we are doing these days.”

TTIP has failed – but no one is admitting it, says German Vice-Chancellor

" Germany’s Vice-Chancellor said in 14 rounds of talks neither side had agreed on a single common chapter out of the 27 being deliberated.....

... The free trade negotiations between the European Union and the United States have failed, but “nobody is really admitting it”, Germany's Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel has said. ........"

Ho hum, quick Joey Small went over the wall with his balls on a chain behind him. Well something like that...

Aug 28, 2016 at 10:23 PM | Registered CommenterGreen Sand

Interesting discussion, and I agree that some animals have very little in their make up to allow themselves to be domesticated. I'm not sure cats are fully domesticated, they've tamed us (well not me but then I'm a gardener). At what point does tame slip over into domesticated?

Don't pigs revert quite quickly to a more agressive version once running wild? Tusks grow and everything.

But I do think that 'personality' for want of a better word is part of evolution. It allows animals in a group rub along together and allows different circumstances determine what type flourishes. To a certain extent mankind domesticated itself. Co-operation became a positive survival instict. Hunter gatherer became farmer.

I think domestication is one of those things that's more conjecture than consensus. eg recent DNA tests are pushing the advent of the dog further back into mankind's past than previously thought. Until recently they thought dogs were descended from grey wolves but now it looks like they both split from a common ancestor that no longer exists.

Aug 28, 2016 at 10:00 PM | Unregistered CommenterTinyCO2

@Swansea British Science Festival Tue 6 Sep • 17:00 – 18:00
Panel Discussion : What can I do about climate change anyway?
Organised by:
British Psychological Society...which makes me suspect Lew Crew will be there

Is there a bigger challenge to our society than combatting climate change? Governments and policymakers have launched many campaigns to persuade the public that the path to tackle climate change lies in behaviour change on an individual level. Our panel explore what we can do as individuals, and how we should effectively engage the public in the fight against our changing climate.

Aug 28, 2016 at 8:55 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

SandyS 3:53 thanks for the white cow correction!

My memories of Highland cattle in summer in Perthshire is of very docile animals, despite huge horns. I think fences with cattlegrids stopped them from going too far down the glens. The fences only had to extend 10s of yards either side of the road cattlegrids , to where the terrain was uncomfortable for them to plod. Presumably the location of the cattlegrids, with associated fencing was based on 100s of years experience.

Provided stocking densities were kept sensible, and there was enough grass, there was no reason to restrain their movement. They were living almost as wild as the deer, that would sometimes graze amongst them. The deer would scarper on sight smell or sound of humans, the cattle would not, having occupied barns for 4(?) months of the year.

Aug 28, 2016 at 4:23 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

ACK & SandyS Domestication v. Tameness again!

The film "Born Free" was about a couple who rescued a lion cub, Elsa, brought her up as a pet, and then realised they needed to re-wild her. It is based on a true story, and the BornFree Foundation still exists carrying out similar work.

All sorts of charities, trusts and voluntary groups are capable and willing to rescue injured wildlife, and nurse it back to health, whether it is seals, oil-slicked seagulls, or owls with a broken wing. Organisations are much better now at not getting animals too tame, prior to release, but releasing a healthy wild animal, back into the wild after a period of captivity, is no guarantee of a successful outcome.

Released into a similar environment, animals are capable of finding shelter etc, but being fed as much as they need, to a daily timetable, dependent on man, without any exertion or effort, is a habit that wild animals get used to, very quickly.

Similarly, a well stocked bird table can support many different species, and a large number of birds. If the householder goes away for a single day, especially when there are broods to feed, there will be casualties.

Aug 28, 2016 at 3:55 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

golf charlie
Quick point, the Limousin Cows round here are brown, the white ones are Charolais, When I was a lad the two main types of dairy cattle were Ayrshire (brown and white) and Friesian. The beef breed was Aberdeen-Angus., Highland Cattle were a very minor part of population.

As you say it doesn't take a carnivore to kill you.

Aug 28, 2016 at 3:53 PM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

ACK & SandyS Domestication v. Tameness

Very happy to have the distinction made and raised! I remember a programme (25 years ago?) about Russian scientists selectively breeding foxes. Within 3-5 (?) generations, they could reliably breed savage psycho foxes that would attack almost everything and everything, or docile laid back lap-foxes. Interestingly, there were clear links between physical characteristics (length, colour of coat etc, physique, jaw size etc) and temperament. I am now wondering whether this programme was first screened before/during/after the Dangerous Dogs Act.

Farming is a dangerous industry, along with fishing and mining. There are big, heavy powerful bits of machinery, and lots of lone working, plus some big unpredictable animals, that are predominantly herbivores, not genetically programmed to kill, but programmed to defend themselves, their young, their herd, their harem, etc., with a good head butt or kicking.

As a child, I knew that black and white cows (Friesian) were ok to be in a field with, provided I kept my distance, did not walk towards them, especially if there were bulls or calves present. White cows (Limousin and Charolais) were NOT to be trusted at all, as they knew that "herd attack" was the best form of "herd defence".

Animals can be tamed or domesticated, but you cannot completely breed out their instinct to flight or fight for survival. They do not have to be carnivores to kill.

Aug 28, 2016 at 1:42 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

@M Courtney certainly not wicked..and I agree with what you say but maybe a touch more.
The thing is that the Guardian reader types are brainwashed that they think normal people are chavs and racists and can't be trusted, so they do get drawn into giving "the truth" a helping hand..possibly leaving some inconvenient stats out of reports.
Actually faking data would be the far end of that scale.

Aug 28, 2016 at 10:49 AM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

SandyS. I remember seeing a programme about a russian experiment to domesticate wolves by selective breeding over many generations. It was not successful, wolves became slightly tamer but remained untrustworthy. They bred true for wildness. Occasionally however a pup would be born that had certain characteristics, I don't remember exactly but included distinctive colour markings on their coats and could be more easily tamed. They didn't behave like wolves and I believe the plan was to selectively breed these dog-wolves to see if they could produce dogs.

I suspect that attempts to produce domesticated foxes, as opposed to tame foxes, will fail unless, like wolves, foxes occasionally throw up sports that have less wildness in them.

Aug 28, 2016 at 8:36 AM | Unregistered CommenterACK

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