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Discussion > Grenfell Tower - Deadly Fires: Mismanagement, or just no managers present

gc/rc

Some friends of mine installed a misting system in a big refurb job on an 18th C mill building - the results are aesthetically insignificant (you wouldn't know it's there unless you noticed the edges of the 50mm diameter flush mounted pop-up nozzles) . The amounts of water that are introduced when activated are tiny in comparison to a "traditional" sprinkler system - as far as special treatments are concerned for any areas likely to be affected - it's a "don't bother" scenario.

Escape zones i.e. on a staircase some epoxy paint loaded with recycled shotblasting grit applied to the floors in any stairwell would provide anti-slip - towerblock stairwells aren't generally high traffic areas. IIRC you can get surprising guarantees of durability on such a scheme.

If the structure would support it - a rooftop swimming pool (health centre?) would supply any water required ;-)

I'm quite curious about the architects ... they seem to have done the proverbial runner?

Dec 31, 2017 at 8:52 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Dec 31, 2017 at 8:02 PM by golf charlie

If it as difficult as you say, and there appears to be no alternative without spending money, lots of it, tenants in high rise blocks are on a to a hiding to nothing :)

Dec 31, 2017 at 9:13 PM | Unregistered CommenterRobert Christopher

tomo & Robert Christopher

Owners of historic buildings have used technology developed for specialist purposes, ships, marine, military, computers/electronics etc. This is technology that is tried and tested. It works, and costs would be reduced by mass production.

Fires at Windor Castle, Hampton Court etc did cause a bit of a rethink, when it came to Listed Buildings.

Offshore, marine, ships etc tend to be built with materials that can get wet, and don't absorb water. Control system are better protected (or have back-ups) from the consequences of fire - heat, smoke, steam, loss of power and water

The UK Building Regulations started with getting people out of a building. There was time to get everyone out of Grenfell Tower using the stairs, when the Fire and Rescue Services first arrived on the scene, and possibly when they realised the fire was not within their control.

Jan 1, 2018 at 11:23 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

It's not only tenants in high rise blocks on a hiding to nothing, it looks like cars in multi-story car parks have the same problem:
EXPLOSIONS were heard and horses evacuated after a huge blaze ripped through a car park in a dramatic incident that officials say could have been prevented by sprinklers.
Express: Huge fire tears apart Liverpool car park - inferno could have been prevented by SPRINKLERS

Jan 1, 2018 at 4:34 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

Jan 1, 2018 at 4:34 PM | Robert Christopher

Sprinklers are unlikely to extinguish a burning car. A car fire normally starts under the protection of the bonnet. Car tyres are good for spreading fire from one car, to an adjacent car. Once fuel and/or oil is leaking, and alight, from one car......

Fire engines don't fit into multistorey car parks either.

Jan 1, 2018 at 10:15 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

re: burning cars

I don't think they could have done much there... confined space, *lots* of combustible material.

A sprinkler system might have slowed / reduced the spread by cooling adjacent vehicles but it'd have to have been a manually operated deluge system as by the time the phials have individually ruptured the fire has got hold - given the combustibility of cars ...

Jan 1, 2018 at 10:56 PM | Registered Commentertomo

gc

'Sprinklers are unlikely to extinguish a burning car. '

The officials didn't suggest that! No one did.

You appear to have difficulty in comprehending the posts here as your replies veer off, implying something that could not easily be inferred.

In this case, officials said that a sprinkler system would have given the fire brigade a better chance of reducing the damage. The thought of it extinguishing a burning car is only present in your mind: not the officials, nor mine. It isn't relevant as we know it isn't feasible.

Their view must be of some value as they were on site (I would assume unless told otherwise) and would have some previous experience. They might have even discussed it among themselves.

And I can't see what driving a fire engine into the seat of the fire would accomplish: a truly deluded option.

Jan 1, 2018 at 11:54 PM | Unregistered CommenterRobert Christopher

Robert Christopher, if you think a car fire can be extinguished with a sprinkler, you are welcome to try. As tomo points out, a sprinkler/mist spray may reduce the chances of an adjacent car catching fire. Water may be used to cool a car down, to reduce catastrophic failure of fuel tanks, but that requires firefighters to be dangerously close. Multistorey car parks are well ventilated, and cause a "firestorm" effect. Spraying a multistorey car park with water from the outside will help to prevent flames from spreading to other buildings, but may not "save" any specific cars.

Legislation for buildings changes at 18+ metres in height. This is linked to maximum heights achievable with standard ladders. One of the problems at Grenfell was a shortage of appliances with long enough ladders.

Many of the general public are deluded about what fire fighters can actually achieve when attending a fire. Their first priority is saving lives, not buildings. No one was able to save the lives of those in the upper levels of Grenfell. They should not have been trapped there.

Jan 2, 2018 at 8:01 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

gc

I have not suggested that a sprinkler system can extinguish a car fire, so why strongly infer that I have done that? Why even mention it when it is accepted fake news.

It is tantamount to extreme inventiveness of the unpleasant kind.

Please stop it. It does you no good.

I have quoted officials, saying that a sprinkler system could have delayed the spread of the car park fire, giving the fire brigade more time to deal with the fire. Given that the temperatures were reported to be 800 - 1000 Deg C and that the fire spread to many floors, not just to adjacent cars, that is quite a sensible view. Just keeping the temperature down would have reduced the damage.

Given that there was no sprinkler system, I expect determining what fire risks, if any, were considered will be most illuminating, and how competent those involved were in deciding that a sprinkler system was not needed, assuming that a decision was consciously made.

I expect it is possible to install a sprinkler system to be ineffective but sensible people would not expect such a result.

Jan 2, 2018 at 9:12 AM | Unregistered CommenterRobert Christopher

Robert Christopher

I was going to quote the Merseyside fire officer that made the statement about sprinklers.

Having seen my share of burning cars - the opportunity to prevent the spread is a limited one time wise. The amount of water required once two or three cars are burning would likely exceed many local water supplies.... If there are high value assets to be protected a foam deluge is generally the very expensive and complicated response - effectively multiplying the effect of the water. Aircraft are worth the effort - cars..... not so much.

Given the amount of plastic panels on modern cars I'd suspect that car fires have become more destructive if not more common in the last 25 years... Where car parks are not standalone i.e. integrated into shopping malls and the like a fire suppression system seems like a prudent move.

Jan 2, 2018 at 9:33 AM | Registered Commentertomo

tomo - you still haven't addressed any of the points raised in my last post, only gone off at a tangent.

What a disappointing start to the New Year.

Jan 2, 2018 at 10:46 AM | Unregistered CommenterRobert Christopher

Robert Christopher

That's quite a lot of cars incinerated - thankfully no people. The actual temperatures are just that... it's the amount of fuel available and the chimney effect that makes it all work so effectively - plus the extensive use of plastic panels on modern motors.

I suspect that a sprinkler system wasn't even considered - the ensuing squawking after this fire and the insurance claims from my fellow scousers might persuade tptb to reconsider the sprinkler situation - but I wouldn't be surprised if a trial found that 2-3 adjacent cars burning is unstoppable on a single floor.

Jan 2, 2018 at 11:14 AM | Registered Commentertomo

Robert Christopher, I am not ex Fire and Rescue Services, but have been involved with the aftermath, cause etc of quite a lot of fires. I have worked with serving Fire Officers, and retired Fire Officers.

If every building had a sprinkler system, fatalities and devastation caused by fire would be reduced. False activations would lead to a massive increase to property damaged. Fire Officers know this, and have been advocating sprinkler systems for decades. Since Grenfell, the media are broadcasting their views more readily. A sprinkler system is NOT a magic solution to all tyes of fire. What is a sprinkler system? Mist, spray or drench? Automatic or manual?

You refer to my delusions about fighting a fire. What do you think they are?

Jan 2, 2018 at 2:07 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Farce

Accused Grenfell Tower Joyce Msokeri is appearing in court in a wheelchair - although she has no medical condition to justify it, court is told.

Sun report

Mar 2, 2018 at 5:20 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Mar 2, 2018 at 5:20 PM | tomo

Hopefully she will receive some appropriate, and deserved alternative accommodation for a year or so, for which she may not be truly grateful.

The amount of time spent/wasted by the Police, before they released the final death toll, should be remembered in the context of fraudulent claims. There is then the distress caused to those who did lose friends and family.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/woman-faces-six-grenfell-tower-charges

A woman has appeared in court charged with seven counts of fraud related to the Grenfell Tower fire.
Joyce Msokeri is accused of falsely claiming her husband died in the blaze and fraudulently claiming £10,000 of support that was being offered to survivors.
The 46-year-old from Sutton, south London, was arrested on 25 July and charged on 4 September. She will appear on Tuesday before Westminster magistrates court in central London.
The charges allege she made false representations to the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea for money and accommodation at the Hilton hotel, to charities in order to obtain clothing and food, to hospitals that she was the wife of a patient, and also made false representations to HMRC and a GP surgery in Kensington and Chelsea.
Sending the case to crown court, district judge Elizabeth Roscoe said: “It is a substantial amount of money. It is in circumstances where it is akin to a fraud on a vulnerable person who has been injured. It is similar to that in that of course there is a finite pot and the more that is taken out illegally, the less there is for those that deserve it.”

Mar 2, 2018 at 6:45 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

golf charlie on Jan 1, 2018 at 10:15 PM
Sprinklers are unlikely to extinguish a burning car.

Robert Christopher on Jan 1, 2018 at 11:54 PM
"The officials didn't suggest that! No one did.
...
The thought of it extinguishing a burning car is only present in your mind: not the officials, nor mine. It isn't relevant as we know it isn't feasible."

golf charlie on Jan 2, 2018 at 8:01 AM
"if you think a car fire can be extinguished with a sprinkler, you are welcome to try. "
I don't think that; I have not stated that; And I have said as such.

Robert Christopher on Jan 2, 2018 at 9:12 AM
"I have not suggested that a sprinkler system can extinguish a car fire, so why strongly infer that I have done that?"

tomo on Jan 2, 2018 at 9:33 AM
"Aircraft are worth the effort - cars..... not so much.
What about lives? Slowing the spread of the fire could be deemed worthwhile.

golf charlie on Jan 2, 2018 at 2:07 PM
"You refer to my delusions about fighting a fire. What do you think they are?"
Try reading my post of Jan 2, 2018 at 9:12 AM

There is a large difference between having sprinklers in every apartment, which usually have soft furnishings etc, and a fire exit corridor, which should be free of materials that could be damaged by water, as would a multistory car park: vehicles should be OK, and people should be getting out of the way of the fire!

A large multistory car park should have CCTV that is monitored by officials, especially during busy times, so automatic sprinklers would not necessarily be needed.

Another point is that there should have been a fire assessment when the car park was built, even if the conclusion was 'don't bother with sprinklers', and it should be examined regularly in case circumstances have changed, and after a fire.

Mar 2, 2018 at 10:50 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher

@Robert Christopher

As you point out there are things to be considered in new builds - retrofits will be resisted on cost.

Expecting our present crop of UK bureaucrats and elected representatives to be responsible and competent seems too much to ask.... The only hard figures that they seem to pay attention to are their own salaries and benefits.

Mar 3, 2018 at 12:17 AM | Registered Commentertomo

"It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong."

@Sowelldaily

Mar 3, 2018 at 12:37 AM | Registered Commentertomo

Mar 2, 2018 at 10:50 PM | Robert Christopher

Do you have sprays/sprinklers/mist systems in your dwelling? If not, why not?

People don't want to pay for the damage caused by accidental activation. Insurers would pay for it, having increased premiums accordingly.

In the "majority" of single room domestic fires that are extinguished by the Fire Services (ie the whole house was not an inferno), the cost of repairs will extend to most rooms due to damage caused by water, smoke and steam. The smell lingers permanently, even where there is no visible damage.

Jan 2, 2018 at 9:12 AM | Robert Christopher

What are you expecting a sprinkler system to do in a multistorey car park? A car fire normally stats underneath the bonnet. Bonnets are designed to keep rain out.

Carparks are designed and built to be cheap and simple. These days, very few have attendants 24/7. They have low ceiling heights that will prevent access by Fire Engines and Pumps.

These low ceilings wil also contain any blast or explosion from petrol tanks, bursting tyres, and other pressure vessels. Not a very good environment for a suited and booted firefighter in the carpark, or on the top of a ladder directing a hose, through an opening. Fire Fighters only go into buildings if there are persons missing.

Even without the fuel, a car burns at an intense heat, with a lot of smoke. The car will be a write-off, so Fire Fighters can do little more than direct water jets and sprays from ground level. It is not exactly precision.

Reinforced concrete structures may be structurally flawed after the intense heat of a fire. Access is not normally attempted, until after the remains have cooled.

Multistorey Carparks Public Toilets etc, are used by the homeless, for shelter. Sometimes they do start small fires to keep warming. Sometimes these small fires get out of control, especially if drugs/alcohol are involved.

Once the Grenfell Tower Inquiry started, I was happy to leave this thread alone. I do believe that sprinklers should be installed in Escape Routes. The Residents who escaped from Grenfell Tower ignored the advice to stay in their Flats. Fire fighters had no means of rescuing those that stayed in their Flats as instructed.

The simple fact remains that Grenfell Tower was a safer building for occupants when it was built. The "What to do in the Event of Fire" instructions were safer.
Insurers and Lawyers are very wary of sprinkler mist sprays. The pipework provides the ideal environment for Legionnaires to breed. Activation is the ideal method of introducing it into peoples lungs.

Mar 3, 2018 at 1:23 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

The United Nations are poking their nose into the Grenfell fire

Guardian report

Mar 9, 2018 at 5:11 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Mar 9, 2018 at 5:11 PM | tomo

If the UN allowed poor countries to develop, the UK Housing Stock would not be so overcrowded with people desperate for a better life.

Mar 10, 2018 at 11:03 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

gc

indeed ... I think the UN should be moved from New York and Geneva to Timuktou and Ouagadougou

that'd get them to pay attention

Mar 10, 2018 at 12:25 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Mar 10, 2018 at 12:25 PM | tomo

It would isolate them from the perils of the 21st century, by giving them some 19th century perils to worry about.

Mar 11, 2018 at 12:40 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Another scam involving Grenfell funds

The Times has a piece 15 people in one flat claiming £1,000,000 or so apparently....

That proposed prison in Nigeria might be a good place to put them.

Mar 11, 2018 at 6:01 PM | Registered Commentertomo

tomo, from your link:

"One of Britain’s most notorious “crash-for-cash” fraudsters, Masi Naqshbandi, is among the relatives rehoused in new properties, including flats in a luxury development in Kensington, west London, furnished by John Lewis.

The Naqshbandi family insist their main residence before the fire on June 14 last year was a three-bedroom flat on the third floor of Grenfell Tower. However, only four names are believed to appear on the original tenancy agreement.

Concerns among council officials grew when some of the relatives started listing the flat as…" etc etc


People who wondered why it took the Police so long to confirm the death toll, need to bear this in mind.

I doubt whether Grenfell Tower or KCTMO, are unique, and across London and the UK, Council/Social Housing has similar problems. The colours of the local political flags are irrelevant.

Some of these residents may genuinely believe they have valid tenancy agreements, whether they understand UK Law or not. This is "organised crime" against UK residents and Taxpayers on a massive scale.

Local Authorities, whatever their political colour, have turned a blind eye, because it "solves" the "housing crisis"

Mar 11, 2018 at 6:50 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie