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Discussion > Was Enoch Powell a Prophet or a Pariah?

Do you regard Powell as someone who gave a prophetic warning to the UK or was he a racist bigot?

May 5, 2016 at 3:00 PM | Registered CommenterDung

He was correct to warn of the consequences of mixing different creeds, cultures, ethnicities etc. It is now deemed politically incorrect to acknowledge he was correct.

What his motives were, I don't know.

It is of note that it is the current Multicultural Labour Party that is imploding around racial hatred issues. Which is sad. It is better to acknowledge a problem than pretend it doesn't exist.

May 5, 2016 at 4:31 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

golf charlie

Thanks for the response and I agree with every word of it :)
Powell was a pariah when he was alive but it did not stop him telling the truth as he saw it. If Powell had been listened to we would not have the radical muslims that we have in the UK today so even if he was politically incorrect he was bloody well right.
I watched videos of him recently, he was interviewed by Robin Day and by Frost and the person who reminds me of him the most is Farage although Nigel is not really in the same class intellectually .

May 5, 2016 at 10:17 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Dung, the radicalisation of Moslems has not been caused by UK issues, but has been allowed to be cultivated in the UK , for fear of accusations of Political Incorrectness. The liberal culture of the UK and Europe makes it very difficult to stop an individual travelling to Syria, if they have not broken any Laws, no matter which of the many sides they choose to fight for.

I was first aware of the 'Rivers of Blood' speech following the Broadwater Farm riot and murder in 1985, when I was at University, which closely followed the Miner's strike. The National Front did quite well out of that.

Across Europe there is now a backlash of nationalism. In the UK, UKIP is attracting support from the disaffected of the left and right. The media, establishment, and established parties are keen to draw attention to the more extreme characters of UKIP, but have actually caused/created the conditions for UKIP to flourish. The majority white anglo saxons are being discriminated against, to avoid upsetting the minorities. It is only through the quirks of the UK electoral system that UKIP did not return a dozen (?) MP's.

I am now in favour of Brexit. Those who are pro-Europe, have never done anything to address its many failings, and no-one is being invited to vote for a radically revised Europe. A vote to stay in, will be represented as a vote of approval.

I have also noticed that the majority of devotees to climate science are pro European policies and grant funding. Attempts to blame the Syrian refugee crisis on Global Warming, for no technical or scientific reason, have not helped leaders within Europe, especially those facing elections.

I have no affiliation with any political party

May 6, 2016 at 12:04 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

A bit off topic subject isn't it ?

May 6, 2016 at 11:20 AM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

stewgreen
Almost a logical progression from Pro/Anti EU theme. Powell had strong views on that too, a Little Englander you could say.

May 6, 2016 at 12:28 PM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

stewgreen

When the Bish is active on the forum he prevents people going off topic by asking them to take it to the discussion area, I am not aware of any specific areas that are off topic here, please let me know if you know differently.

May 6, 2016 at 12:28 PM | Registered CommenterDung

stewgreen & SandyS

I came across Powell while searching for EU related views and yes he was anti the European Common Market way back when I was a lot younger ^.^. He was not a racist either and he correctly (in my view) pointed out that culture and religion were the problems and not colour or race.
SandyS I assume that 'Little Englander' is not exactly used as a term of affection :)

May 6, 2016 at 12:34 PM | Registered CommenterDung

golf charlie

The Muslim problem is closely linked to the EU problem in a way but I thought it was wrong to raise that issue in a good Referendum debate here.
You mentioned a 'backlash of nationalism' but I do not equate sovereignty with nationalism and the definitions of nationalism are pretty vague. Not wishing to be ordered around by unelected people in Brussels also does not make you a nationalist and neither does a desire for democracy and freedom ^.^
For me UKIP is a much needed breath of fresh air in UK politics.

May 6, 2016 at 12:52 PM | Registered CommenterDung

@Dung @SandyS I'm not a special person, just got one vote like anyone else, so I have no right to impose on you. It's a free world and all that, but be careful playing with fire.
We have a duty of care to the site, especially while the Bish is away and there is a problem I can see out the corner of my eye.
... If R-ff had started this debate then I would tell him to take it else to a politics blog etc. cos the problem I can see is I can imagine a warmist picking up on the thread title and making up a narrative that "that BH it's a site full of mad right wingers who praise E Powell"
- When R-ff has tried to take us way of topic before I being wary of some trap have told him 'Climate/green and energy are the topics here'.

..Now some of the general points here are leaning towards analogies with the climate debate :like Powell may have been monstered and how warmist PR try to monster skeptics.
- Also Like how actual races/sexes don't matter, but cultural practices do and that the dramagreens may have cultural practices that need to be challenged : like the way they won't turn up for proper debate, and how they try to disrupt others free speech and media access.

- I think bad people in the past have used EP's words to do bad things : from burn down property to beatings, to unfair discrimination.. And we have to think of their victims.

May 6, 2016 at 1:53 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

stewgreen

If I believed that the Bish had a problem with the topics I have started then I would not raise them because this is his blog after all. However when I first came to Bishop Hill there was a section on the right hand margin which contained a proposed new British Constitution written by the Bish himself, I just do not know where this idea is coming from that he wants only climate/green topics in the discussion area?

May 6, 2016 at 2:33 PM | Registered CommenterDung

I imagine Powell might oppose the extension of the British Empire to already populated places.

May 6, 2016 at 2:35 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Reed

Stewgreen. Don't you think that a highly educated and politically astute man like EP should have been able to predict the impact his "Rivers of Blood" speech would have on those you categorize as "bad people"? Isn't he therefore just as culpable?

History judges him a pariah, and his extreme prophecies have, thankfully, notproven to be correct. So what's to discuss?

May 6, 2016 at 2:41 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

Alan Reed

help me out mate, I do not know what point you are trying to make, sorry?

May 6, 2016 at 3:00 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Dung, yes accepted. It has been made Politically Incorrect to be proud to be British. To express National pride, equates to Nationalism and equals fascism etc etc.

I was irritated about 15 years ago, when asked to describe my race/ethnicity etc. I could be British, and Welsh/Irish/Scottish, but I couldn't be British - English. I am actually 1/4 Irish, and my parents had childhoods living in Wales and Scotland. Watching the 5/6 Nations Rugby, I support England, but have a lot of good vibes about Ireland Scotland and Wales, and a lot of good memories of France and Italy.

I have lived and worked abroad, in non-English speaking, non Christian countries. I have worked with people who have fought in civil wars, in recent history.

The UK is amongst the most open and welcoming countries to those of different race, creed, religion, but it is not perfect. I do not get on with 100% of white anglo saxons, and no one is forcing me to. Brits abroad have always been guilty of living in 'ghettos', and living a 'British' lifestyle. Those from overseas should be welcome to do the same here, whether they are 1st or 7th generation, but it does require different cultures to respect each other, and observe the Law of the Land.

It would be sad if Scotland became Independent, and not necessarily a good idea, but if that is what Scotland wants, then so be it. If Scotland then wants the English out of Scotland, then how are the English supposed to respond?

If Enoch Powell's message was controlled immigration, then he was right. I don't believe he was saying NO immigration. Maybe I'm wrong. Europe is advocating unrestricted immigration to wealthy European countries because the poorer ones can't afford it. The Germans have now had enough, and Angele Merkel knows it. Nobody wants to admit Powell was right, because that would be politically incorrect.

May 6, 2016 at 3:04 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Alan Kendall

First of all history is in no position to have an opinion on Powell's prophecies, in case you had not noticed; history is still being written.
How can a highly educated and politically astute man like you think it wrong to speak what you believe is the truth just in case some people can not handle it?

May 6, 2016 at 3:06 PM | Registered CommenterDung

'Little Englander' has had several meanings across time and the writer did not indicate which he meant.
Some meanings might be be regarded as pejorative in their day but not now.

May 6, 2016 at 3:38 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Reed

Dung. History concerns the past. In the time between when EP gave his speech and the present is the past, and therefore is history. In that time period 1) he has been judged a pariah, and 2) his prophecies have not come to pass. What is to come is not yet history. If you, however, can foretell the future and can show that these historical facts will change, then this discussion has a future. If not, then why bother?

Are you implying that EP should have made his speech even in the full expectation that it would cause race hatred? If so, then you and I are so very very far apart on the political fence.

Please don't mangle my words to suit your political agenda, and you have no way of knowing how politically astute I might be.

May 6, 2016 at 3:38 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

golf charie

You said: (May 6, 2016 at 12:04 AM) "Dung, the radicalisation of Moslems has not been caused by UK issues" and I can not agree with that :(
The basic idea of right and wrong is not the same under Islam as it is in the UK. It is a basic belief that they should live under Sharia law but it disagrees with UK law and customs. A Muslim (is it Moslem or Muslim?) man can have 4 wives in the UK but a British man can still be sent to prison for bigamy. A Muslim woman is at best a second class citizen under Sharia. Muslims believe that government should be religious. These things are anathema to our culture but Muslims will continue to try and change our culture.

May 6, 2016 at 3:48 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Alan Kendall

Your last post is now in the past but I would not accept that it was history.
Powells prophecies have indeed come to pass but they are not yet finished. The suicide bombers at a London train station and aboard a London bus perhaps do not count in your opinion? What about the Brixton and Broadwater Farm riots?
If Enoch Powell believed that mixing cultures would lead to bloodshed then not only was he right to say it, it was his duty to say it.
You might also note that I do not sit on the fence (bloody uncomfortable for a start).

May 6, 2016 at 4:01 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Dung. What part of RIVERS of Blood do you not understand?

May 6, 2016 at 4:12 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan Kendall

@Dung thankyou for reading my comment and replying
" where this idea is coming from that he wants only climate/green topics in the discussion area?"
I've seen it in the "snipped by mods" bits seemingly when annoying troll types have tried to setup "sucker us in" tricks.
Obviously quite a few normal off topic bits go unsnipped.
I tried to explain above think I detected that they were trying to keep us being drawn into "trick issues"

May 6, 2016 at 4:19 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Interested parties may like to view this great video ^.^
https://www.youtube.com/embed/RWcVguB0GaY

May 6, 2016 at 4:42 PM | Registered CommenterDung

stewgreen

do you think I am drawing people into 'trick issues'?

May 6, 2016 at 4:44 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Dung, radicalisation has been part of the anti-USA/Israel backlash. The Moslem freedom fighters trying to throw the USSR out of Afghanistan were US backed and equipped. One of the Rambo films even glorified it.

Saddam Hussein was a friend of the West, whilst he was at war with Iran. After Iraq invaded Kuwait, Hussein knew that attacks on Israel (Scud missiles) provoking an Israeli reprisal, was his best chance of destroying any Arab/Moslem alliance with the USA.

Osama BL was well funded by Arab oil money and was able to cultivate and support reactionary clerics around the world. This still goes on. Disaffected youths are easy to whip up into a frenzy of hatred, and with the blessing of 'God', can be persuaded to do all sorts of things if it is for the greater good/God.

The UK is a safe place to radicalise footsoldiers, to fight enemies not necessarily connected with the UK.

In legal disputes (civil) between Jews in the UK, both sides can opt for Jewish Law and settlement. Islam operates a similar process. My presume something similar operates for Hindus and Sikhs.

The Christian Mormons believe in more than one wife. This has raised 'issues' in the USA. How do you know it does not contjnue in the USA and UK. Do you remember Joyce McKinney? Wikipedia does!

Sharia Law is a logical extension to the original 'Eye for an Eye' school of Jewish Justice adopted by Moslems and Christians. In the UK killing people for witchcraft or belonging to the wrong Christian faith, was made illegal a few hundred years ago, but is practised (allegedly) in Northern Ireland.

UK Law was exported all over the Empire, and some Commonwealth countries still look to the UK Courts as the highest authority.

Sharia Law is abhorrent, but only a few hundred years out of date by UK standards.

May 6, 2016 at 4:45 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie