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Discussion > Are ordinary British people really being radicalised by Islam?

"OK those are just suggestions so what do people think?"

I think it would be a massive boost to those who are trying to radicalise muslim youngsters. And they woudl be rightly aggrieved if they were treated like that.

"4) Mosques will remain open as normal EXCEPT that all teaching will be in English and a Christian priest will always be present."

Where are you going to get all your Christian ministers from?

Mar 23, 2015 at 12:10 PM | Unregistered CommenterNial

Nial

With church congregations down all over the place I would think that they had lots of time and be grateful for the opportunity to do something useful.

It is not possible for those who are trying to radicalise Muslim youngsters to be 'RIGHTLY' aggrieved.

On this subject the people on BH are behaving in exactly the same way as those on the dreaded Real Climate and I have to say my eyes have been truly opened.


MUSLIMS are a problem.
RADICALISED MUSLIMS are an even bigger problem.

However you lot have done nothing but throw rocks at me. Not one single suggestion as to how we might tackle these problems from all the brains and qualifications you have at your disposal, it is a sad day indeed.

Why are ordinary Muslims a problem? Muslims demanded and have got Sharia Courts, they wanted and have got madrassas and they do not believe in civil government. Most Muslims have some sympathy with those who were responsible for innocent deaths in Paris, 25% thought the actions were justified so for god's sake wake up folks!

Do I have to explain why radicalised Muslims are a problem?

Mar 24, 2015 at 12:30 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Dung, nobody wants to paddle in this pool. We’re already involved in one controversial issue, we don’t want to embark on another.

That said, the problems we face are not Muslim per se, it could be any religion or race. When you think of how we’ve handed power to kids, you can see why we’re in trouble on all fronts. At some point we chose individualism and human rights over conformity and social responsibilities. We can’t even agree on a common set of community rules by dint of majority because for every rule there is a sufficient number of people who prefer that issue to be unfettered. Take smoking. Most are very happy that it’s now banned in public places but a significant minority want their right to smoke back and don’t give a stuff what everyone else thinks. Shouldn’t they just shut up?

So the problem is not how to stop Muslims doing their own thing, it’s deciding what the right things are in the first place.

Mar 24, 2015 at 3:56 PM | Unregistered CommenterTinyCO2

OK you get your way, I will stop paddling in this pool as well.

Mar 24, 2015 at 4:06 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Mistake

Mar 31, 2015 at 10:53 AM | Registered CommenterDung

Tiny: Going paddling again :)

Interesting that you brought up smoking mate; Most people in the UK do not mind other people's lifestyle/behaviour until and unless it begins to affect their own lives. It was proved/decided that smoking damaged the health of anyone breathing in 'second hand' smoke, just as it damaged the heath of those who smoked. Without the second hand effect there would be no grounds on which to ban smoking.
I believe that religion parallels this situation. The government is not being logical in banning smoking in public but allowing Islam as a religion in the UK. As I said earlier; we can not remove Muslims from this country for lots of reasons but we surely can force them to obey our laws and prevent them from setting up a parallel legal system for themselves, it simply requires political will and courage. The slaughter of Mr Rigby on our streets and the approval of Islamic action in Paris recently should have caused a seismic shift in government attitude to Muslims but instead they continue to fawn over them.

Apr 2, 2015 at 11:50 AM | Registered CommenterDung

Dung, please stop bumping this post if you really are not simply a malicious troll out to punish the bish for daring to delete your blog comments. There is a greater battle to be fought here than your sensibilities, and if you care anything for it then you should desist.

Apr 7, 2015 at 10:37 AM | Unregistered CommenterTheBigYinJames

Dear Mr BYJ

Now you think I might be a malicious troll or that I have started this thread to gain revenge on the Bish for deleting my blog posts; however you forgot to mention when you get your next psyche evaluation.
The Bish has shown that he will remove comments that he truly does not approve of or that he feels belong on a different part of the website; the thread is still here so I am assuming I have not overstepped the mark. I think it is also worth noting that the Bish gives two main lists of external links; these are to science blogs and to political blogs.

I started this thread because I believe Islam poses a real existential threat to our way of life (as actually do a faction of the global warming fanatics). I started it on BH because I saw it as a group of open minded highly intelligent people but so far that is not proving to be a reliable assumption.
My views do not really seem to be totally out of step since since Sajid Javid was on tv this week stating that certain parts of the Muslim community hold views which are unacceptable to the UK.

Apr 7, 2015 at 11:18 AM | Registered CommenterDung

I started it on BH because I saw it as a group of open minded highly intelligent people but so far that is not proving to be a reliable assumption.

No, you started it because you're a bigot on a mission.

"our way of life" really, Dung? Do you need it explained to you?

You are the sort of person alarmists point to when they refer to a denier.

If you really do care about the climate issue then you would stop this harmful crap.

But you don't, you lump it in with a basket of bigotry and prejudice in your addled brain. You really are a moron.

Apr 7, 2015 at 4:57 PM | Unregistered CommenterTheBigYinJames

BYJ you have changed this thread from being about Islam in the UK and made it about the bile and venom you heap upon me personally. I do not want to prolong that so why don't you follow a different discussion BYJ. I will not miss you I promise.
For info; I am proud to be labelled a denier.

Apr 7, 2015 at 6:16 PM | Registered CommenterDung

I'm sure you are - because you are one.

Apr 8, 2015 at 8:56 AM | Unregistered CommenterTheBigYinJames

BYJ

I do not deny the holocaust and therefore there is no taint attached to it when the title 'denier' is applied to myself. I deny the warmist case for global warming and am proud to stand against it :) What exactly is wrong with that Mr BYJ?

From what dark corner of your mind did you conjure the title 'bigot' as a suitable one for yours truly?

Bigotry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry
Bigotry is a state of mind where a person obstinately, irrationally, unfairly or intolerantly dislikes other people, ideas, etc.
One assumes that you are referring to my statements about Muslims? Despite the evidence I have given you still think I am irrational, unfair or intolerant or probably all three hehe? You also seemed to take a dim view when I suggested that our way of life was under threat; a truly 'head in sand attitude'.

Bigamy has been a crime in the UK variously for between 100 and 200 years and it still carries a sentence of up to 7 years in prison. However Islamic law allows a Muslim man to take 4 wives and not only is that allowed by the government but they also attract welfare benefit, housing benefit and child benefit.

The UK has a comprehensive legal system with laws based on parliament and on precedent.Muslims alone of all British citizens have been allowed to set up a system of Sharia courts based on Islamic law.

Apr 8, 2015 at 1:27 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Sad little racist.

Apr 8, 2015 at 2:21 PM | Unregistered CommenterTheBigYinJames

When we discuss science you are always eager to back up your statements with references but now that you are just hurling insults you seem not to believe that evidence is required before you label people. You were always a difficult person to get on with but recently you have set a new low.

Apr 8, 2015 at 3:19 PM | Registered CommenterDung

What Muhammad did you may do. What Muhammad did not forbid you may not forbid. Such is the "Prophetic Methodology".

Muhammad is revered as The Perfect Man to be emulated. He was a warlord, a slaver, a murderer, implicated in beheadings and the rape of the wives of his defeated enemies.. Islam is not a religion of peace it is a religion of intolerant aggression against all other faiths and sects within Islam itself. The Quran is a "radical" document. Jihadis can find in it all the justification they need for whatever heinous act they commit.

Muhammad is a totally inappropriate model for anyone today.

Until the Quran is savagely edited of all its aggressively intolerant threats against those who do not accept Muhammad as God's last prophet it will continue to cause grief in the world and in Islam. But who will volunteer to edit it to make it seemly for the 21st century multicultural global village? No-one, unless he wants to be decapitated in the street. There is no such thing as a "moderate muslim" so long as they pay lip service to Muhammad's doings, his demands of the faithful and his example.

Apr 8, 2015 at 7:09 PM | Unregistered Commentermarchesarosa

Thank you marchesarosa

Could you tell me about your background? It would be interesting to know if those views come from a Muslim, Christian, Atheist or other.
I am white male atheist aged 66.

Apr 9, 2015 at 12:26 AM | Registered CommenterDung

Dung (and his ahem 'friend' marchesarosa), since we've had reasonably civil conversations in
the past I will take pity on you. Let me try to explain to you by analogy, since it's obviously NOT
obvious to you why you are being an idiot.

Imagine there is a beleaguered group of people fighting for a cause they believe in passionately.
Let's say it's the 1850s and we're a band of abolitionists arguing for the disbandment of slavery.

Polite society thinks we're idiots - the economy of the south would collapse without it, and anyway
there is biblical precedent for it, the Africans are little more than savages and at least they are
educated in Christianity while they are here, so their souls are being saved as well as being useful.

We, the abolitionists, see that the 'consensus' position of society is dead wrong, on many levels,
and we think slavery is evil and must be stopped for our own sakes as well as the poor slaves.
But we have been unable to convince many people of that because in the previous decades, the
only people who espoused an anti-slavery message were Quakers and evangelicals and other
mad religious sorts considered not worth listening to by polite society.

We are being tarred by the brush of previous incumbents of the abolitionist position.

After many years working hard to establish our position, we start to find the ears of people who
matter. Our message is slowly becoming less outlier, and more and more people are starting to
listen to us, and come to our weekly gatherings. We can feel the ground starting to change. If
we can just convince the people that we aren't the mad idiots they thought we were before, then
perhaps our message can gain some traction with the wider population. We are making some
progress.

Then, at the next meeting of the Abolitionists, a Reverend Dung stands up to address the crowd.
In that crowd are a number of people simply curious about our message, here to see if perhaps we
are actually talking sense, and if convinced, perhaps join the growing clamour to end slavery.

Reverend Dung stands up and says "I know you've come here to hear about the evils of slavery,
but while I'm allowed a platform, I'd like to discuss something else.... you know when you are
beating your wife... do you find a tawse or a cane gains best results?

People start leaving the room, finally convinced we are crackpots, never to return.

Apr 9, 2015 at 9:11 AM | Unregistered CommenterTheBigYinJames

Little Dung waited in fear outside the door of Headmaster Yin's study, this was not a place little Dung enjoyed visiting at all. His previous visits had involved a lot of shouting (by headmaster Yin not poor little Dung) and often a severe beating or two.
The door opened and a positively beaming Headmaster jovially invited him inside. As he entered he saw that the room had been transformed; a roaring fire occupied the normally empty and cold hearth and two large and comfortable armchairs had been drawn up to a table right by the fire. The headmaster sat in one chair and invited little Dung to sit in the other and at that moment the door opened again and a maid entered. The maid first spread a beautifully decorated tablecloth and then added a large teapot with a pretty tea cosy plus two cups and saucers, plates, butter, milk, cream and sugar. Finally the maid brought two enormous plates of toasted hot cross buns; she put one in front of little Dung and the other in front of Headmaster Yin.
First the Headmaster poured Dung a cup of tea, asking at every stage how much milk, how much sugar etc; he then took the first bun from little Dung's plate, spread it with lashings of butter and placed it in front of Dung.
"As you know Master Dung, I am a very, very, very, VERY clever man and I have qualifications you could not possibly know the meaning of. However I want to help you and I want to forget all; the arguments we have had before. Dear little Dung I want to show you how to teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

Apr 9, 2015 at 1:55 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Detention for Dung minor.

Apr 9, 2015 at 3:23 PM | Unregistered CommenterTheBigYinJames

All debate is fine.

I became an 'atheist' at a very young age and grew up in a relatively religion-free atmosphere, though we celebrated festivals etc. I supported Muslims at a time and place when they were victims of violence (I am not Muslim). To this day I don't understand why the US and the UK went to war in Iraq. To be more specific I never bought the official given reasons and excuses.

As I grew up I had the opportunity to revise and change many of my notions about religion. I met and talked to people from Iraq. I expressed support about their country, (and surprise) they told me in turn they were happy Saddam was finally gone and how bad it was under him. I gave up on the simplistic Dawkins-like interpretation of religion, though I had not bought into it too much, on reading Dostoevsky.

I think there are several things wrong about organized religion that are toxic, Islam included. In a former age and context I stayed away from criticizing Islam. I don't feel the need anymore. There are clearly murderous cults that thrive within Islam - as they do or did in other religions. The religion is a big umbrella - it has too many different types of things housed under it.

Backward-thinking is wrong, and stupid, whatever religion you might belong to. Wherever you go, the influence of religion has waned. Everyone knows it is a sham. The jihadi Islamists are intent on proving to others and themselves that their religion is an exception? No matter how many heads you chop, how many hands you cut, how many layers of layers of black cloth you drape on women, or how many statues you destroy, religion is dead and God is dead. No amount of censorship and murder is going to put the genie back in the bottle.

Apr 10, 2015 at 7:07 PM | Registered Commentershub

Shub

I agree with your views of religion in general, I was about 15 when I decided that religion was dangerous and nothing I have learned since then has changed my mind. However my main concern is the danger to this country and our way of life and there is only one religion which threatens those things. I want us to discuss Islam in the UK in an open and honest way because so far in the UK these issues are not openly being discussed.
I just ask the people on this blog to give their views and discuss those views. This is one thread in the Discussion area of BH, it does not reflect on the Climate Change discussions on the main blog page. This blog was a libertarian blog before it was a Climate Change blog so nothing here is at odds with its roots.

Apr 10, 2015 at 11:15 PM | Registered CommenterDung

One of the reasons I post climate opinions under the name TinyCO2 is because that's what Tiny discusses. For other issues I tend to don a different name so that my views do not merge into each other. I don't want people to agree or disagree with me based on something unconnected to the issue at hand. I have no personal internet identity. I have no Face Book page, I don't tweet, I don't even like email. I am deliberately hard to pigeon hole. Politics is something of an exception because it has such a huge impact on the climate bandwagon, which is ironic since this is a country where on paper all parties agree.

I do have opinions on religion and Islam and even what we do about them but not here.

PS smoking wasn't displaced for medical reasons (although that was the excuse) but because non smokers hate the smell but were too cowardly to say. While there was a majority of adult smokers there wasn't a lot that could be done about it but then the balanced tipped the other way. It wouldn't matter now if passive smoking was disproved, non smokers would strenuously resist a return to free smoking rules. As you wrote 'it requires political will and courage' but it's never 'simple' if you're on the wrong side of public opinion.

Apr 11, 2015 at 9:09 AM | Unregistered CommenterTinyCO2

dung, I am not from the UK so I cannot comment on the specifics. When you say 'danger to the country and our way of life', I presume you mean the threat of 'jihad' -based violence (danger to country), and political-cultural ideologies and practices (danger to way of life). The problem of saying 'Islam' is there are many types of religious tendencies and gradations within it. Clearly, the question is not about all of them and as you point out it is not about the religion itself, but a culture. Correct me if I am wrong - the culture in the UK and in general in the West is post-Enlightenment, post-religious with roots in Christianity. The clash is between recalcitrant religious cults within a religion and a post-religious society.

One thing I noticed is how Islamists (ie. those for whom Islam is a sociopolitical tool, rather than a religion) use the norms of a post-religious secular setting to silence their opponents and buy the silence of the majority of their coreligionists from allegiance to the common faith. (Observe carefully, and you will environmentalists do the same thing). Good people know it is not good manners to discuss religion (it will take you nowhere and you will only lose friends); they respect freedom of expression including religious expression. Does that mean murderous and violent religious ideology should get a free, unopposed run? The trick is to untangle the two, and sometimes it is not easy to do so on the fly.

Apr 11, 2015 at 1:36 PM | Unregistered Commentershub

Tiny:

Maybe bring your political self and name to Bishop Hill at some point so that you can join in this kind of discussion without compromising the system you have created for yourself?

shub:

'danger to the country and our way of life'

I would say that you had a much deeper understanding of religion than I possess and so my comments may seem pathetic. However I would say that in Britain religion has always had a voice that would be listened to but never a voice of absolute authority in government. My understanding is that all Muslims believe that the voice of Islam should be the only voice in government and in law.
This is a real and powerful threat to our way of life. Having said that; UK politicians are also a real and powerful threat to our way of life :)
Politics has changed dramatically and is now about keeping large community groups onside so that they will vote for you, any considerations of right/wrong or good/bad have been consigned to the garbage bin.
Cameron's recent comments about the importance of defence are the perfect example.

Apr 11, 2015 at 3:19 PM | Registered CommenterDung

Dung & others - have you read -

America Alone: The End of the World as We Know it Hardcover– 25 Oct 2006
"It's the end of the world as we know it...Someday soon, you might wake up to the call to prayer from a muezzin. Europeans already are. And liberals will still tell you that "diversity is our strength"--while Talibanic enforcers cruise Greenwich Village burning books and barber shops, the Supreme Court decides sharia law doesn't violate the "separation of church and state," and the Hollywood Left decides to give up on gay rights in favor of the much safer charms of polygamy. If you think this can't happen, you haven't been paying attention, as the hilarious, provocative, and brilliant Mark Steyn--the most popular conservative columnist in the English-speaking world--shows to devastating effect.
The future, as Steyn shows, belongs to the fecund and the confident. And the Islamists are both, while the West is looking ever more like the ruins of a civilization. But America can survive, prosper, and defend its freedom only if it continues to believe in itself, in the sturdier virtues of self-reliance (not government), in the centrality of family, and in the conviction that our country really is the world's last best hope. Mark Steyn's America Alone is laugh-out-loud funny--but it will also change the way you look at the world."

Agent Storm: My Life Inside al-QaedaHardcover– 3 Jul 2014
"Morten Storm was an unlikely Jihadist. A 6'1" red-haired Dane, Storm spent his teens with a biker gang or in jail. But after converting to Islam he embarked on a transformation that led from a militant madrassa in Yemen to a close friendship with Anwar al-Awlaki, the American-born cleric who would emerge as al-Qaeda's greatest threat to the West.
Then Storm's story took another dramatic twist.
He lost his faith and was recruited by the CIA, MI6 and MI5, becoming a double agent. His ultimate mission: to bring down his mentor al-Awlaki.
This is the searing memoir of a man who sought purpose in a community of believers before rejecting their extremist ideology. In a quest for atonement he lived undercover for five years, travelling the world to complete high profile missions. As well as single-handedly thwarting multiple terrorist attacks, he led the intelligence services to some of al-Qaeda's most dangerous terrorists, all the while knowing his own life was expendable.

Agent Storm takes readers inside the Jihadist world like never before, showing the daily life of zealous men set on mass murder: from dodging drones with al-Qaeda leaders in the Arabian desert to Jihadist gyms in Birmingham. It also gives a rare look inside the world's most powerful spy agencies, including their tradecraft, after-hours carousing - and their ruthless use of a beautiful blonde in a honey trap."

makes you think :-) and no harm in thinking/posing questions

Apr 13, 2015 at 1:01 AM | Unregistered Commenterdfhunter